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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. The consensus below is that Stea meets the applicable notability guidelines. Eluchil404 (talk) 09:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin Stea

[edit]
Kevin Stea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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While he's had plenty of jobs none of them seem to reach beyond the level of background player or minor parts (e.g. "passenger on plane"). Eeekster (talk) 00:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — -- Cirt (talk) 07:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There's a talk page note that says one movie he was in (Newsies) has some cult status. Thought that should be taken into consideration. Cloveapple (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But how big was his part in the movie? Eeekster (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not certain. I thought he was part of the core group of actors, but as I keep searching I'm getting doubtful. The movie was nominated for outstanding young ensemble cast in a motion picture at the Youth in Film Awards that year but he's not listed among the group of actors nominated. If there is any coverage of him in the movie it would probably be under the character name "Swifty." When I checked Google's news archive for "Swifty Newsies movie" there was a Toronto Star and a Buffalo News article on the results list, but I would have had to pay to read them so I don't know if they actually talked about him or were only mentions of the name.Cloveapple (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I teach in the Theater/Dance Department at Anoka Middle School for the Arts in the the Minneapolis area. This is a large program with nearly 600 students in the theater/dance program. We actually use Kevin Stea as an example with our dance and theater students on the importance of being a well rounded artist and as an example of an artist with longevity. Though he may not be a "super star" his career would fall under very successful from his winning on "Star Search" to his work as a choregrapher with some of the biggest names in American Music. My students may not all know his name but many of the recognize his work. His work in dance alone shows a credibility. I think an issue here is that not all his work is in the U.S.A. so it is dismissed by some for that. I don't think it is fair or accurate to base someone levels of success based on its country of origin. Work outside of the USA shoud hold the same weight. Simple online research of Mr. Stea's work and it is more extensive than some of the actors that are popping their heads up in this fall's new sitcom line up or this summer's Hollywood Blockbusters. Also, I would like to add that Newsies has more than simply a cult following. I know for a fact. That it is development to open on Broadway as a stage show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfietek (talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 June 2011 — Jfietek (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Comment Wait a minute, someone is suggesting that Madonna's Dance Captain and one of her choreographers on "Blond Ambitiion" who is also an international legend in the world of dance is up for deletion, while every single "Real Housewife" whose never done anything in her life but be cast on a reality tv show is worthy of wikipedia? This is bizarre, and contrary to the whole concept of Wikipedia. Kevin Stea is a piece of global dance history. Do people have any idea what it takes to be one of Madonna's dance captains, and tour the world with her? What does it take to be a Real Housewife? Kevin Stea is part of global dance history. Wikipedia should recognize that. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aethlos (talk • contribs) 19:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I believe the listing does meet the criteria as I have read it. I believe removing the Kevin Stea article is inappropriate because his acting career is such that he is listed in several other Wikipedia articles about movies he was in. These articles all link to the Kevin Stea article under the cast listings.
Austin Powers in Goldmember: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Powers_in_Goldmember
Newsies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsies
Naked Boys Singing in which he had the starring role: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Boys_Singing_%28film%29
To remove the Kevin Stea linking would break the linked information chain that Wikipedia is famous for and would deprive users of information of interest on the Kevin Stea article. (After reading a lot about Wikipedia protocols, I hope this is the appropriate place to make this comment.) Gmccombs (talk) 22:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)Greg McCombs[reply]
Comment Kevin Stea deserves to keep his Wikipedia page. He has fans that recognizes all his hard work throughout the years which is more than what I could say about some other people in the industry. He has directed and choreographed for various artists and projects! He is already credited in the following Wiki articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Powers_in_Goldmember abbyluna —Preceding undated comment added 00:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Comment Following the example of "Cloveapple" above I have spent the past 4 hours researching further, using the guidelines of WP:ENT. Kevin Stea is a distant cousin (our grandmother's were sisters) and I became aware of his prolific international career last year while researching my extended family's genealogy. I do not believe this is a conflist of interest because I have not actually met Mr. Stea. However, this helped me with my research as to where to look for information. I found that he is an actor in another huge cult movie "Showgirls" as the character Daryl (from the IMdb listing for that movie). I also note that under the definition of WP:ENT (Model) that he is an international model too and he can be found on the cover of "Cosmopolitan", and in articles in numerous fashion journals such as "Harper's Bazaar," "M4s," "Asiance," and several magazines I could not read because they are in Italian from Milan, etc. He has modeled for such famous designers as Theiry Mugler, Exte, Jean Paul Gaultier and many others. I also found under the definition of WP:ENT (television) that there is a big tv career in Italy as part of the trio Kevin Stea, Luca Tommassini, and Lorella Cuccarini in Rai2 shows like "Buona Domenica" and "Spazio delle Dente." Apparently this trio had so many fans that they had to hide from the more avid crowds when they went out. I also saw reference in the US to his TV work on "Dancing With The Stars" with Carmen Electra. Following the wikipedia guidelines, I do not believe this article warrants deletion, but rather, should be marked as something called a "Stub" because, according to my research a great deal is missing. 69.181.192.117 (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2011 (UTC)Greg McCombs[reply]
Comment I met Kevin Stea in college and he was marvelous then. His talent and beauty show in all his work since the early Eighties. He has a huge fan base with over 2000 likes in Facebook alone. http://www.facebook.com/#!/KStea There are over 400,000 views of Kevin Stea on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/user/kevinstea http://www.youtube.com/user/kevinsteadancer In addition to the large magnitude of successful commercial work http://www.kevinstea.com/about/, he has two solo artist releases as That Rogue Romeo, “Can’t Help Myself” and “City of Glass”. He directed the show at the Avalon Theatre in Hollywood, California. http://openartistmovement.com/kevin-stea/ Jimoon2011 (talk) 03:01, 7 June 2011 (UTC) — Jimoon2011 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Sources Additional Sources:
Times of India http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-04-19/news-and-interviews/28146572_1_indian-dance-auditions-ar-rahman
Disney Pictures: The Tempest: Kevin Alexander Stea as Star Dancer http://www.disneydreaming.com/2010/05/10/touchstone-pictures-the-tempest/
Kevin Stea stars in Naked Boys Singing http://gaydarnation.com/UserPortal/Article/Detail.aspx?ID=19990&sid=64
Feature article on Kevin Stea, Asiance Magazine: http://www.asiancemagazine.com/node/3627
Kevin Stea filmography, IMDb http://www.asiancemagazine.com/node/3627
Filmography: movieplanet: http://www.moviesplanet.com/names/913/kevin-alexander-stea
Kevin Stea credits: movieweb http://www.movieweb.com/person/kevin-alexander-stea/credits
Fashion work: Nu-Riders 2 collection http://vizeau.net/?p=12
Fashion work-FantasticsMagazine http://www.fantasticsmag.com/node/2772 Gmccombs (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Greg McCombs — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmccombs (talk • contribs) 15:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clear keep @Crisco. He is not an actor, he's a choreographer and dancer!! I think as a choreographer this guy is extremely notable. He has worked with most of the biggest names in pop music!!! His case against Madonna in 1990/91 is most certainly notable and is covered in a wealth of different books. I've ousted the crappy sources and added reliable sources of which there are plenty, certainly enough to pass. His track record indicates to me this is one sought after choreographer and is most certainly notable in his field.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:HEY  Chzz  ►  18:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Questions I was asked to comment, although the subject works in a field where I have little knowledge or interest. My immediate reaction on reading the above comments would be delete, as most of the arguments amount to ILIKEHIM. But even without special knowledge,except perhaps for a special knowledge of what we usually do at AfD, I can compare this with standards used in other article discussions. We have consistently said that playing a minor role in notable shows does not amount to notability, but that it can be different for very famous shows. The Madonna tour was certainly a very famous show, so it is possible that his being a dancer in it is notable. It's asserted above he was the chief dancer, but I see nothing in the article to that effect. If there is an actual RS for it, it might mean something. If he was just one of the chorus, I have my doubts--I see the other dancers in the show do not have articles. That he is mentioned in cast listings is irrelevant--everyone is mentioned in cast listings. What I'd want to see is that his performance in it was reviewed, not just listed. The other roles are none of them major. We have repeatedly said that minor named roles in ordinarily notable pictures does not amount to notability, even if there are a quite a number of them, though it can be different for particularly famous character or voice actors. Five times less-than-notable is not notable. To make an analogy where I'm more familiar: being assistant professor in 5 colleges does not make one notable; holding a named full professorship in just one, does. His choreography is asserted as notable --that he was one of the choreographers for major performers is not significant, because there are normally a number of people who participate in this. If he was the choreographer for a particular star in a famous show, or consistently the choreographer for a famous star, that can be different. I do not see that even asserted--if there is 3rd party documentation that this was the case, he's notable. As for modeling, having been on the cover of a notable magazine has never been accepted as notability; I might be prepared to argue otherwise, but the community has not accepted it.
there's one argument above i want to specifically deny: that he is linked in other articles proves absolutely nothing. It's routine for people to write an article about someone and insert his name everywhere possible, regardless of significance. As for the "chain of links Wikipedia is famous for ", one of the things Wikipedia is unfortunately famous for is the extent of spam. I don't need to specifically deny the argument from Facebook friends or Youtube views--these are classic non-criteria. Again, I might be prepared to argue otherwise for some exceptional cases, but the community has not accepted it.
there's one aspect that does interest me: he might be more notable in Europe and Asia, and the brief article in Times of India suggests this may be the case. We find it very difficult to document performers from India and some other areas, and I've often suggested we should be less demanding of the evidence for people in general with careers in such areas. That one of my arguments has been sometimes accepted by the community. DGG ( talk ) 23:01, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While not automatically notable, an "assistant professor in 5 colleges", might indeed be found notable if for some reason he receives the attention of the press and has significant coverage in nultiple reliable sources independent of the subject. Same for a choreographer and dancer. If such usually-less-than-notable individuals become the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable sources and over an extended period of time, they meet our most basic guideline for determining notability and be seen as "worthy of note" for some aspects of their lives or careers. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Aditional Sources that might bolster the article as outside, independent sources for work of kevin Stea:
Michael Jackson’s “Blood on the Dance Floor” -http://www.youtube.com/user/michaeljacksonVEVO#p/u/32/c3_NntYhzV4
MTV 10th Anniversary Special Michael Jackson Black or White/Will You Be- http://www.youtube.com/user/alexbism#p/u/8/zxKvN44wGqg
Blond Ambition Tour Japan – MitsubishiSpecial channel – http://www.youtube.com/user/MitsubishiSpecial
Videos Television/Classes/Other – Kevin Stea Video Pakistan- http://pktube.onepakistan.com/Kevin+Stea/
United World College Alumni Profile – pg. 6
Cover of Ms4 magazine http://www.uwcsea.edu.sg/uploaded/foundation/files/Publications/Alumni_Magazines/One%C2%B0North_June2009.pdf
Seiko Matsuda – Japan – Back for More - 松田聖子 w/Kevin Stea- http://www.youtube.com/user/godoronn#p/u/21/CPnvHFkOXgs Gmccombs (talk) 06:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)Gmccombs[reply]
  • Keep Agreee fully with USER:Dr. Blofeld. This individual is NOT an actor and the article does not assert that acting is why he is notable. It is as a dancer and choreographer that he has made significant contributions in many notable productions. The sng WP:ENT declares itself set up for "actors, voice actors, comedians, opinion makerss, models, or television personalities", and does not address dancers and choreographers. He merits inclusion through application of the governing WP:BIO and through WP:GNG no matter that his career is not one addressed by any of the many sngs. And a choreographer and dancer should not be judged by incorrect criteria, tempting as it might be. We do not use a notability criteria for actors to judge articles where notability is not asserted for acting. We also do not use SNGs to declare individuals automatically non-notable simply because they may fail an inappicable SNG when the most basic guideline for determining notability IS met. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I believe the introductory paragraph could be further amended to establish that: 1) That Mr. Stea was the assistant choreographer and dance captain for Madonna, 2) Include more factual particulars about the lawsuit including that not just Madonna was named in the suit but Miramax itself , and 3) note that the lawsuit was withdrawn after amicable settlement. Below is an attempt at revision, and below that I have listed sources for the information. I hope one of the editors on this discussion page can help, since I do not have the wherewithal to use the codes to attach references, should they be determined to be acceptable:

Kevin Alexander Stea (born 17 October 1969) is an American dancer, choreographer, actor, singer, director and model. At the age of 20, he became widely known as the Assistant Choreographer and Dance Captain for Madonna’s Blond Ambition Tour and in the documentary about it, Madonna: Truth of Dare in 1990/1. On January 21, 1992, two dancers from the tour, Oliver S. Crumes, III and the late Gabriel Trupin, sued Madonna’s production company Boy Toy Inc., Miramax and Propaganda Films in Los Angeles Superior Court for fraud and invasion of privacy. When Stea, as Dance Captain, joined the suit, it became an item of international notoriety, to the extent that Stea appeared on the Maury Povich show to talk about the issue. The suit was withdrawn and settled amicably. [1][2][3][4][5]

SOURCES:

Sources pertaining to the lawsuit:

- Information about the lawsuit: http://absolutemadonna.com/?p=7726
- Source for those named in the lawsuit and its dismissal – Hartford Curant: http://articles.courant.com/1994-10-02/entertainment/9409300079_1_madonna-gabriel-trupin-oliver-crumes

Sources pertaining to the role of Assistant Choreographer and Dance Captain for the Blond Ambition Tour:

- Movie bio listing kevin stea as associate choreographer, dance captain and dancer for Blond Ambition tour… http://www.darkbluefilms.com/wildcat_bios.html
- Resume AMCK London – listed as assistant choreographer for Blond Ambition http://www.amck.tv/includes/pdf/artist_cv.php?id=380
- DancePlug professional site for dancers. Stea bio lists him as associate choreographer, dance captain and dancer for Blond Ambition tour… http://www.danceplug.com/kevin-stea
- IMDb database (other works) lists him as assistant choreographer and dance captain for Blond Ambition tour: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0824084/otherworks
- Listed as dance captain and dancer for Blond Ambition by this organization: http://sharetv.org/person/kevin_alexander_stea

Sources pertaining to when Mr. Stea joined the lawsuit and additional discussion:

- Asiance Magazine (this is already listed as a reference on the page) - http://www.asiancemagazine.com/2009/04/15/dancer-kevin-stea

Sources pertaining to the notoriety of the issue:

- Allusions to episodes of Stea’s appearance on two Maury Povich shows pertaining to the issue now part of a DVD collection about Madonna - http://www.ioffer.com/i/MADONNA-SEX-BOOK-1992-SNL-BARBRA-STREISAND-1991-DVD-176142363

I am impressed by the research, writing and editing abilities of USER: Dr. Blofeld, USER: DGG, and am grateful for the discussion of Schmidt, because it has furthered my education on how wikipedia works and how the policies have been developed by the community. Gmccombs (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Gmccombs[reply]

Always look first in google books when approaching a topic. With the exception of recent topics and web bios or the developing world google books is usually the best way initially to gauge notability. If multiple publications make the decision to write and print work discussing an individual or subject, this for me makes it notable, unless the subject is obviously an unencyclopedic one.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your proposed change to the article lede is worth consideration. But please read WP:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources to beter understand how a source is determined as reliable enough upon which to source an article. While the sources you proffered have information on the subject, some of them are not considered WP:RS. However, in following up on information in non-relable sources, editors are quite often able to find the reliable sources upon which that information was originally based, and so then actually use the found reliabe source itself as a citation. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 09:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you USER:Dr. Blofeld and Schmidt,, this has been very helpful in guiding me to finding the best possible sourcing. I must note, however, that I found a book entitled "Kevin Stea" for sale on Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/KEVIN-STEA/dp/6131772045/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307641021&sr=1-1 ) and was very excited until I did further research on the publishing house to find that this is a "publish-on-demand-book" which reprints all the wikipedia pages and the links to that page concerning the subject. This stunned me. I now realize research on line is fraught with pitfalls, and am going to continue my research in the San Francisco main library this weekend. I think that will help me get the most reliable sources possible. I now realize how important the editorial corps for wikipedia REALLY is in this information age. Without them, we could be reduced to meaningless babble. As I am retired and I would very much like to join this group. I believe it is important work. I want to study all that I can find on the wikipedia site to train as one of the contributors. Is there a course or curriculum section where I could begin this process somewhere on wikipedia? Gmccombs (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Gmccombs[reply]

Its a learning curve, you gradually become developed at researching and writing articles. The best way is for you to get on with editing, expand existing articles or create your own and ask one or two editors how to reference fully from google books and web sources. Best thing is to browse some articles on topics you are personally highly interested in and then look on the talk pages for wikiprojects which care for them. You can then join whatever project takes your fancy and they may help you if an active project. If you need any assistance in this feel free to contact me on my talk page. I will also show you how to add a automatic google book url into a full citation at the touch of a button.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you want something formal there's also WP:ADOPT Cloveapple (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If there isn't a concensus of notability at the end of this Afd discussion, the article could be incubated since I believe it meets the criteria for WP:AI. That would give time for what looks like a slow research project. I don't think the sources found so far quite add up to notability, but comments Gmccombs made on the article talk page make me strongly suspect that Kevin Stea may be notable in India, Italy, or Japan. Unfortunately the time period when he may have been generating news doesn't seeem to be well represented on the internet in English. I asked a university librarian in my city for help and they found a mention in an index of a Japanese news source, but I don't yet know if it's a minor mention or serious coverage. Cloveapple (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article has 18 sources for heaven's sake!!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many of which barely mention Stea. If he's notable for suing Madonna and his association with her tour then the notability's in no doubt. When I look at what's here I'm trying to see what we've got beyond Madonna (and her Truth or Dare movie) and beyond the original creative works that he participated in (ads, tours, videos, modelling, dance) to see if there's any reliable secondary sources with review or discussion or bio. Three sources are Screen World. That's an illustrated listing of movies for the year. All movies get in it. Then there's the online bio from his agency (AMCK). The book Fiasco includes Stea's name in a long list of names. Then there's his own website. So that's 6 footnotes. Then 9 of the footnotes reference the Madonna/Truth or Dare situation.
So I was focusing my attention on the three remaining sources: [1] TheaterMania.com's announcement of an upcoming performance, [2] The Los Angeles Times review of a jazz piece he stars in, and 3 the Times of India article. Cloveapple (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Following examples and encouragement from Cloveapple, Schmidt,, and Dr. Blofeld I’ve studied guidelines on how to vet references & use the best independently verifiable sources. Studying formatting guidelines, I’ve made my first inclusions to the article. I hope that editors will check my work and offer additional guidance as to both the strength of the reference and its formatting. I have added information in the following areas:
A) (Introduction) Expanded the 1st paragraph to describe the lawsuit, Mr. Stea’s role, the notoriety that accompanied the suit, and its final resolution. I referenced from newspaper sources, catalog information, professional directories and articles in edited publications.
B) (2nd Paragraph of: Career) Added a reference from a Public Television transcript further establishing Stea’s work with Michael Jackson, & added stars A. R. Rahman (India) and Seiko Matsuda (Japan) to the roster.
C) (3rd Paragraph of: Career) Referenced publications from Italy that allude to the television shows that were listed in the first sentence and added info about the fashion career that began in Italy, appending appropriate references from outside sources and bringing the it up to date with inclusion of recent work in the U.S.
D) (4th Paragraph of: Career) Introduced a 4th paragraph of info pertaining to photography modeling, bringing it up to the present with appropriate references.
E) (5th Paragraph of: Career) Added an appropriate reference for That Rogue Romeo.

There are 4 areas, that perhaps other, more skilled editors could investigate to obtain properly recognized references:

A) Career in India – The Jai Ho World Tour of A. R. Rahman began in India where Rahman is a singing star and travelled to other cities in Asia, the UK, Canada and the US. The article from the Times of India is an interview with Mr. Stea at the tour’s outset. Resources for this are a video Thank You to the UK, and a Promotional video about the making of the Tour, both of which include Stea, but do not seem to make for a good reference.
B) Gay advocacy – The “invasion of privacy” in the 1992 Madonna lawsuit is the “outing” of the dancers as gay in Truth or Dare, one of the first such instances of “gay outing” to reach the courts. (This was mentioned in the first comment to appear on the article’s discussion page.) Mr. Stea was publicly “outed” again in Japan in 1993, before the Madonna suit was settled in 1994. Evidence of Mr. Stea’s current gay advocacy lies in the NOH8 Campaign against California’s Prop 8, Open Artists Movement, and work with “white parties” and appearing in Europride 2010, and Long Beach and Zurich Pride in 2011. Referencing this has proved difficult. (Or perhaps I'm just squeamish.)
C) Career in Japan – The Glorious Revolution Tour of Japan’s singing star Seiko Matsuda, travelled through Asia & Australia with Stea as singing & dancing partner. They made a commercial for Takano Yuri salon which received heavy media play. Matsuda had separated from her husband and the commercial showed the two naked and kissing. This caused a furor in Japan and ended with Japanese newspaper’s “outing” Stea as gay. Referencing this is beyond my skills and in the US only blogs & videos are available to cover the Japanese portion of his career.
D) Newsies – There may be more to Stea’s appearance in the Disney movie Newsies other than it having a cult status for the past 20 years. (I have good references for cultism in articles saying the the movie is the #1 requested "theater book" for a Disney property.) Stea’s character Swifty was one of the first instances of an Asian actor/dancer in a non-stereotyped role, making him a role model. However, I can only find social media posts and gossip about this so far. I note that there seems to be an informal social group called Team Yellow made up of young Asian actors in Hollywood which holds occasional informal dinners, which Stea seems to be an important part of. This began 20 years ago & is well before internet documentation. Yet, I am surprised by the theme showing up in social chatter today.

Gmccombs (talk) 06:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)Gmccombs[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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