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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. (There was a stronger preference to keep the list.) Mindmatrix 20:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish historians

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This article was previously nominated for AFD, with a result of no consensus. All appropriate entries have been put into category:Jewish historians, so this list is now redundant. The only parallel to this is list of Irish historians, and there is no other list of historians in wikipedia categorised by either religion or ethnicity. Therefore, this list should be deleted, along with most other lists of Jews in particular occupations. Graham/pianoman87 talk 10:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, because Wikipedia should not do the dirty work of, and is not a branch of, the despicable Jew Watch. IZAK 09:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Change Vote: Keep per Endomion below. The pros of having a list outweigh the cons of having it. Red links are an invitation to create new articles.
list of Catholic historians; List of Buddhist historians; list of Muslim historians --????? This is not a list of historians who conduct history on Judaism -- I attempted to push for that on the TALK page. I was refused without any viable reason. This is a list of historians who are Jewish -- which is HUGELY different. Antidote 18:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Observe the ambiguity I noted earlier. There isn't much research value that I can see to a list that covers Karl Marx (with the inaccurate information that he converted), Benny Morris and Thomas Kuhn. Now a list of historians of Judaism, ancient and modern Israel and the Shoah would be interesting. --- Charles Stewart 18:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what I tried to push for on the talk page, but was refused because of some people "obsessed" with keeping Jewish lists the way they are. Antidote 18:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
well I agree that for many occupations nationality or ethnicity is a bit irrelevant, such as opera singer, classical musician, travel writer among others. But as Jews did not have their own state until the creation of Israel and were often denied citizenship or worse in countries in which they lived and most certainly had an identifiable culture of their own it is as justified to allow the Jewish people to have their own categories or lists as it is any other state. Arniep 01:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I never disagreed with that. I believe completely that Jews should have their own lists and categories, but I think that some users a while back seriously OVERDID the listing - and I know others have noticed that too. As a matter of fact, I think the categories for Jews are underrepresented when they shouldn't be. Jews should be treated as an ancestry and should have it's own category under people by ancestry. But the listing is truly overkill. Many other ethnic groups function fine with their own country lists, and Jews have the most country lists of anyone. If a Jewish historian with no article was to be added to Wikipedia, then it takes just as much effort to find out if the historian is Jewish than to find out if the historian is Jewish-German (List of German Jews) or Jewish-Hungarian (list of Hungarian Jews). I can see the rationale behind a list of Jewish historians who profess their Judaism in their writings in some form. That makes sense. The list as it is DOES NOT. If you truly agree with me on the fact that Judaism and being a historian have a connection than you will see that the way they are listed here will not work. If the majoriy of Wikipedian ethnic groups HAD lists of historians, then this list is completely fine, but they don't. Unless it is changed to reflect those who profess their religion in their works, it is truly overkill. I can't see how you can disagree with me. If you do, then please please help me understand because I seriously don't. My efforts here are not to "delete" all Jewish lists as User:JJay and you believe, it is to delete ALL lists that are overkill. Jewish lists, anyone will agree, have been the most overmade. I think LGBT lists are a problem too, but there are less of those. Anyway, please help me understand your vote for keep. Antidote 07:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's the intent. Many of those working on these lists are Jewish. That Category:Lists of Jews is so much larger than Category:Lists of Christians or Category:Lists of Japanese people I'll admit is a bit odd. I think it's probably more overeagerness to show Jewish accomplishments than an effort to justify idea "Jews run everything." In fact the fear it was turning into that I think is part of why List of Jewish bankers was removed.--T. Anthony 09:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I tend to agree with user:antidote that lists should only be created when a person's ethnicity/religion is relevant to their occupation. If list of Jewish historians only contained historians whose Judaism was relevant to their work, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Also, the articles that the list links to should justify their inclusion on the list. To take an example from list of Jewish historians, the article for Eugen Weber only hints that he is Jewish in the works section, and does not make any other connections between his Judaism and his work, so he should not be in the list. I'd probably support the inclusion of this list if it only contained historians whose Judaism is relevant to their work. Or maybe it could be moved to list of historians of Judaism and modified accordingly. Graham/pianoman87 talk 10:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • So when he wrote "Reflections on the Jews in France" from The Jews in Modern France, what was he writing about? Or that his "The Hollow Years" extensively examines anti-semitism? Do you actually know anything about the historians on this list? -- JJay 11:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I didn't notice that. I'll take back the statement about Eugen Weber. I don't know much about the historians on the list. Graham/pianoman87 talk 12:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. If you don't know much about them you should try to learn more. Most if not all the Jewish historians on the list will have addressed the Jewish condition in their work. In all cases, their relationship to Judaism is relevant. The list, if properly expanded and annotated, can provide context in a way that a category never can. Instead of continually nominating the list, you should help try to improve it. -- JJay 13:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    It isn't at all clear that the connection to Judaism is relevant from the description of the list. To cite one of the three examples I picked above, how is Thomas Kuhn (history of science) cogent in this respect? --- Charles Stewart 02:18, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s relatively facile to cherrypick names from a list until you manage to prove a point. Given the theological impact of Kuhn’s paradigm, I think his relationship to Judaism is relevant. I would also note that a google for Thomas Kuhn + Judaism gives 28,000 hits. Despite the hysterical reaction of IZAK (should we delete African-American lists because the Klan exists?), I'm still waiting for an explanation for the google results I listed above. Either a disproportionate number of Jews are historians, or we should acknowledge that the world at large routinely indicates religion for Jewish historians, despite their focus. -- JJay 19:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    No cherry-picking involved. I picked three names I know well from the list: one is a historian of Israel, one did little historical work explicitly on the Jewish people, but is clearly relevant, and one looked to me entirely irrelevant. What theological relevance is there to Kuhn's work? He's a relevant name to invoke on the question of whether science and religion could be counted as having incommensurable domains of expertise, but to say that this says something about Jewish theology is rather strained. Is there more that can be said?--- Charles Stewart 19:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you already forgotten Marx? We could also debate whether Kuhn is a historian or philosopher. These are secondary issues. Why don't you edit the list? Furthermore, when Jewish nobel prize winners are listed, as is routinely the case, what does that say about Jewish theology?-- JJay 20:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most of these historians are NOT scholars of Judaism in any way, it is a mistake to think that they merit any connection with the word Jewish=Judaism to many people. IZAK 12:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 08:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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