Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Smallville episodes

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Discussion closed. List of Smallville Episodes will stay in existence.

Please see discussion about individual Episode pages here: Talk:List of Smallville episodes Bignole

(close by non-admin, nominator has withdrawn AfD and no additional delete votes -- Ned Scott 04:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC))

List of Smallville episodes

This page has created a redundancy in the Smallville episode pages. Seasonal pages have already been in place for almost a year, while this page has just been created. This page is in poor quality and contains incorrect information. Though it may be a more common practice to list episodes this way, it isn't a mandatory practice. The Seasonal pages have been around longer, and have managed to condense the information into what is important, instead of creating individual episode pages that just draw out the plot details. Seasonal pages are an improvement on "episode lists". They don't create excess pages for needless plot details, keep "trivia" to what is important and noteable, keep "guest stars" to major roles and not "the milk man standing in the background barely in focus". Bignole 17:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Guidelines are not concrete, and Smallville Season pages are an improvement on the "list of episode" type pages. There are not enough "allusions" per episode to provide support for an entire episode page, but, there are so many in a season that it's good to have a page to list them all. Smallville is unique to most television shows, because it has multiple mediums to allude to for the same character. What is proposed for Smallville is having 6 or so seasonal pages, as opposed to having 130+ episode pages that, for no other reason than to expand a plot into scene for scene description, doesn't have enough info to support a page. Writers and Directors can be listed with the short plot description on the seasonal page. True trivia can be noted under that, because true trivia doesn't occur in every single episode. Quotes are reserved for Wikiquote. Seasonal pages list important guest stars, not every Joe Blow in the show. Also, you should note that all episodes in the Season pages are linked to WikiCities http://smallville.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page, where that type of information (expanded plot, goofs, all guest stars [even ones that are not prominant in the episode], and other less than encyclopedic information) is more appropriate. Bignole 18:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Arguments against Deletion The content and quality of the seasonal pages will be preserved and moved to new articles for each episode. Having an article for each episode allows more information about each episode to be preserved in an appropriate location. The seasonal summary pages and List of Smallville allusions have to exclude otherwise appropriate information to avoid becoming large and cluttered.

The page was only recently created; that is not finished is no reason to delete it. A tag at the top of the page appropriately notes this fact. It is not linked to from the main Smallville article, not will it be until it is ready.

The format proposed follows the guidelines set forth in Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes. List of Smallville allusions is strong evidence that there is "enough independently verifiable information included about individual episodes" to warrant individual episode pages.

Debate History The debate grew out of a discussion of what merited inclusion in List of Smallville allusions (Talk). I (Anþony) proposed that the Allusions page be eventually removed in favor of a Trivia or References section in individual episode pages yet to be created. Upon learning of the plan to create pages for each episode, the discussion spilled over into Talk:List of Smallville episodes, where Bignole immediately suggested deleting the page in favor of the current per-season format.

• Keep per reasons stated above. -Anþony 18:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Why should it be a work in progress to begin with? Individual pages contain information that is highly unencyclopedic to begin with, and better suited for Wikia (where all the episodes are already linked to in the Season pages). Why should a creation even begin if pages that are already in place, and doing quite well in editorship, need a little fixing up themselves? Deviations are sometimes needed with guidelines, especially ones that create needless pages. Oh, and as for the "Allusions" page, that is better suited in Wikia also. By principle it's trivia, and trivia is not encyclopedic. Bignole 18:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

What information about TV shows should be included in an online encyclopedia is definitely controversial. What's encyclopedic to one person may be unencyclopedic to another. It's a matter of opinion. I've been working on these kind of pages for a while and my guestimate is that it's about 40/60 or 50/50 for delete/keep. Without a consensus for deletion these pages usually stay. Also, being on wikia not does not mean it shouldn't be on wikipedia. We're trying to create a one-stop shop. As for the "allusions" page, it has been nominated for deletion several times and survived. It will probably be nominated again, most likely with the same results. - Peregrinefisher 00:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a nice definition of what is usually considered encyclopedic, and unless justifiable you can assume that it isn't. Trivia is always considered unencyclopedic, because it usually involves fanboy information. Special guest stars are trivia, because they are "special guests" and not "recurring guests". Goofs fall under trivia. Quotes have their own Wiki site. Featured music is also trivia, because there is nothing special about it, it changes each episode. Just because you want to note it as a fan doesn't make it any less unencyclopedic, which is where Wikia comes in. Visit some of the episode pages, you'll find that many have the information you are trying to put in a Wikipedia page. There is no such thing as a "one stop shop". If you are linking to another Wikipedia page then that's the same as linking to a Wikia page. You aren't putting all this information into one page, you are creating 130 pages, which is hardly a "one stop shop". Keep it where it belongs. Oh, and the fact that "Allusions" has been nominated and never deleted doesn't change the fact that it's in the wrong place. It is relevant, because the allusions are so relevant to the show, just not this site. They are still unencyclopedic, and should be at Wikia. Bignole 05:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. This discussion has happened with many list of episode pages and the result has been to keep them. Instead of trying to get rid of just this page you might put your effort into creating consensus to remove all lists like this. You could start here. If the general rule becomes that pages like this don't belong on wikipedia then I would support deletion. - Peregrinefisher 06:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because a bunch of fans get together to overrule policy doesn't make it correct. Policy is not guideline. Everything you wish to add to a single episode is fancruft, and by doing so a violation of policy about this encyclopedia. Just because currently other shows are getting away with it does not make it "standard". Not everyone can monitor everything, and you usually have fans creating/editing things of that nature. Also, by creating this page, and the 130 other pages of episodes you will be deleting information that already exists. Everyone of the episodes have already been created on Wikia (in their proper place), all you have to do is click their titles. YOU are creating the redundancy, because they already exist. Bignole

I would like to point you all to this page Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes which explains the guideline for creating show pages. It stipulates that you do a Show Page (i.e. Smallville (TV series)), then you do a Season page (i.e. Smallville season 5) (you'll note it says "logical division" and an entire list of episodes altogether is not a division), then you do episode pages. Also, note that this page is part of the Wikipedia:Centralized discussion page, which is about discussing changes to Wikipedia Policy, where Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes was created by a user bypassing Wiki's policy change page. Even the WikiProject page lists the CD page as policy, in it's "additional guidelines" section. The question now is not about who is right, because technically, both the season page and the list page is a format for creating the TV show, but the question is which has the right of way. Preference for one style or the other is an opinion, and we know what opinions are here at Wikipedia. If the List page had been created first I would yield, but the Season pages were created months before this page and they are in better working order (minus some changes that need to be made to the summaries and a coulpe other fixer-ups, but much better than the List page). This isn't about what editors prefer, but about which was used first. The Season pages have seniority over the List page. Bignole

• Keep as a standard, conventional list of episodes. Not being a Smallville fan, I don't understand all this talk of "allusions". At the moment the page looks hideous and is in need of a massive cleanup. Summaries need rewriting to be more encyclopaedic. The images are superfluous: they are mainly there for decoration, don't add anything to the content, and are thus, against fair use policy. The problem with this type of show is that it attracts early teen fanboys to add unproffessional elements. I'd rather see it deleted than be kept in it's current awful state. The JPS^{talk to me} 19:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but do not create individual episode articles until the season articles are well-referenced, episode by episode. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 19:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Per request for review of my vote (see User_talk:Armedblowfish#List_of_Smallville_episodes), I've noticed that there seems to be two issues being discussed here: a) should individual episode articles be created and b) should the episodes be listed all on one page, or by season.
  • For the first issue, as I stated above, I have no problem with individual episode as long as the season articles are first well referenced, episode by episode. a google search for Smallville episodes reveals a large number of hits, suggesting that this shouldn't be a problem. You should, of course, also use the episodes themselves (primary sources) as references, see {{cite visual}} and {{cite episode}}. However, please be aware of WP:OR#Primary_and_secondary_sources, which explains acceptable uses of primary sources. In addition, while a number of the google hits may not meet WP:RS for factual information about the episodes, citing them for their opinions and analysis (with attribution) shouldn't be a problem.
  • As for the second issue, it was initially my understanding that season articles would be preferred if there were no individual episode articles, and a list would be preferred if there were individual episode articles. However, if I was wrong about this, and individual episode articles are created, but season articles are kept instead of one big list, consider creating a category for Smallville episodes as a compromise. The category could be organized by season/episode number instead of alphabetically, see Category:Stargate SG-1 episodes for an example. — Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 21:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the pages need to be well referenced. I think this is best done on each episodes own page so I have included a references section on each (see here). Currently it just lists where the featured music info comes from but it can be expanded easily. This will allow for different references for each episode as needed. The season pages weren't well referenced and hopefully this will move us in the right direction. - Peregrinefisher 21:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure how referencing each episode individually would be easier on the individual pages. Wouldn't it be better to start by providing minimal per-episode references on the season pages, and expand to individual episode pages when you have enough references to draw material from to justify doing so? If it's a matter of organization, see m:Cite/Cite.php. (Of course, as one of the editors ultimately writing the articles, how you go about referencing them is up to you. Consider this advice. Having well-referenced episode articles will make them less likely to be deleted as non-notable fancruft.) Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 22:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Too tell you the truth I don't really know how to reference stuff very well. I know there's a giant page on how to do it but could you give me a quick tutorial on how I should reference say trivia from Imdb and quotes from wikia? Thanks. - Peregrinefisher 22:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, to use inline references (Cite.php), you basically enclose the citation in <ref> and </ref> tags after the piece of text you are referencing, and put <references /> on the bottom of the page in a section entitled "References" (or possibly "Citations"). See {{imdb}} for citing the IMDB. For example, <ref name="IMDBlamo">{{imdb name|id=2238804|name=Adrian Lamo}}</ref> produces: (Click on the little number to see the reference at the bottom of this AfD). By using the name attribute, I can use a reference multiple times, while only having to type out the whole thing once, and only having it appear once on the bottom of the page. For citation after the first one, I simply type <ref name="IMDBlamo" />. Wikia does not actually meet WP:RS, being not only another wiki, but part of our very own Wikimedia foundation, thus constituting a self-reference. (You can of course link to Wikia, just not as a reference.)

Other templates you can use in between the ref tags (or outside them) are {{cite visual}}, {{cite episode}}, and {{cite web}}. (Also see Category:Citation templates.) You can, of course, construct your own citations by hand. (If you want to see the text for the later examples, just look at the wiki source for this page.) I hope that helps, but please feel free to ask me for more help on my talk page at any time. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 23:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Factual correction: Wikia is not actually part of the Wikimedia Foundation. However, Wikia, Inc. was also founded by Jimmy Wales, like the Wikimedia Foundation. In any case, it still doesn't meet WP:RS. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 02:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I'll start using them. - Peregrinefisher 23:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you take a look at Pilot (Smallville episode)? I put it in how I thought it should go but the whole references section disappeared. You can see my attempt if you click on edit the page. There may be a problem because the page is http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0702990/quotes. - Peregrinefisher 23:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

'Kay. Everything after the Quotes section disappeared because of a mistyped </ref> tag. Basically, it thought everything in the article after the initial opening <ref> tag was part of the reference. (An easy mistake to make.) Also see Category:External link templates, which among other things lists different IMDB templates for different URL formats. However, apparently {{imdb title}} adds a closing slash that causes the particular URL you want to link to to break. So I substed it (note that substing does not work withing <ref> tags) and fixed the URL manually. I also appended the date I retreived the URL on, which is standard for {{cite web}}, and a good idea for web references (in case the page changes or disappears). Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 01:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per JPS and Armedblowfish - no particular reason to delete. The template even states it is a work in progress. In addition, having had a look at them, the "season" pages are also in need of having the "magazine teaser" style summaries re-written. Exclamation marks are always a bad sign in an encyclopedia. Bob talk 19:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I created a created a page for Pilot (Smallville episode) so we can start working on the formatting for the individual pages. For now I won't work on any others because we don't want them to diverge from the series page's entries. At some point we should make a big push and do them all at once. Contact me if you want get together and do that. - Peregrinefisher 19:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Currently this page looks pretty ugly to me, clean it up and sumarise the episodes. Keep long info on the ep. page it's self. Also be more careful when chosing stills for episodes and make show they offer criticaal commentery for the episode in question and that the imagery info being conveyed is also conveyed in the summary. thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 14:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - If someone knows an episode's title and doesn't know what season it's in, this is a much more convenient way to find it. The page should, of course, be cleaned up properly and should list all the episodes with a link to the individual episode's page (even if the episode doesn't have its own page yet). There can be a small summary of the episode as well, but I don't think that's necessary. Emily ^{(Funtrivia Freak)} 19:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

But I don't want to delete the season pages, Peregrinefisher! If each episode can't have its own page, we should keep the season pages and link the episodes from this episode list page to the appropriate season page! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luvtheheaven (talk • contribs) 19:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC).

The plan is to move every bit of information from the season pages to this page. Nothing will be lost. If you look at List_of_Smallville_episodes#Season_1:_.282001-2002.29 and at Smallville (season 1) you will see that everything has been copied at least and some of it has been improved. Note the individual episode pages. - Peregrinefisher 20:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You're ignoring Policy that I provided regarding TV episode pages and their associated pages. It doesn't matter what opinion is, not every episode deserves a page. Also, the votes were not for deleting the Season pages, please realize that your opinion is not 100% carried through the group. I think that a List of the Episodes 1-whatever is fine, but you are carrying information that is redundant fromm other articles. The DVD list is in the main page, which makes it irrelevant to the List page. You are not respecting the policy of TV pages (which is what it is, as per the Centralized Discussion which determines policy change). I think the List will be fine if it's just a list with the basics, and a link to the season pages for details on the Episodes. It does state explicitly in the CD that expanded plots are not for the episode pages. I have no problem with expanding the information in general per episode on the Seasonal pages. We can make both pages work to our benefit, but I think (and since the idea that most episode pages can't support themselves is clear in the CD) creating 100+ episode pages is unnecessary unless relevant. With a nice, condensed, clean plot summary (slightly smaller than what's on the season page) we can create enough space to include "relevant" trivia (as per Wikipedia:Trivia suggests) that manage to keep what everyone wants. It's clear that everyone wants to keep the List page, but it's clear that atleast 3 of the votes are not for deleting the Season pages. I think a nice compromise can be reach with regard to both articles, can you can be rest assured that votes for deletion on the season pages will go about the same as this one. Most people that edit those pages don't know of this page, as I didn't know of it until just recently (and I've been editing Smallville since I joined). Bignole

• Comment: It looks like we have a strong consensus. - Peregrinefisher 19:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment If the Season pages are deleted but their content preserved, the edit histories should be preserved somewhere for GFDL reasons. You could either a) copy the edit histories to the talk page of the episode list or b) make them redirects to the episode list. I would reccomend the latter, as it preserves the most information. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 22:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think redirecting is the way to go, for the above reason. - Peregrinefisher 23:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Currently, Peregrinefisher and I are discussing how we can make both pages their best, while preserving them (seeing as that is what most people want, and how it will turn out if a "merger" is proposed on the season pages ((i know those editors, they'll fight hard)). If anyone is curious about the details of the discussion see Peregrinefisher's talk page, and mine for the back and forth of it all. It's a little much to put here without bogging the page. Bignole 01:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. This dispute does not seem to be about "This" article, but rather the concept of individual episode articles. The way I've seen it done on many articles is that you have a List of episodes article, then when that gets big you trim the list down to brief summaries, then link to something that goes into more detail about each episode (such as an episode article, season article, or story arc article). WP:LISTS states that lists can be articles in list format or navigation aids, or a little of both. Allowing the reader to view all the titles and air dates on one list is very much a navigational aid, and it can be an article in that not every reader wants to dive into that much detail just to identify an episode. I suggest not creating episode articles yet, instead change the links on the List of episodes article to point to article sections on the season articles. -- Ned Scott 02:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Citation examples

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.