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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. v/r - TP 23:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Music in the Civilization video game series

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Music in the Civilization video game series (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Not notable without substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. None provided, none found. Prod removed without comment. SummerPhD (talk) 12:38, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) MrKIA11 (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep How is this article different from any of the articles in Category:Video game soundtracks? It looks to be a collection of video game soundtracks. Keep in mind that Civilization IV won the first-ever Grammy Award for a video game soundtrack (ref). —Disavian (talk/contribs) 00:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It looks like this article started as "Music of Civilization III." The editor behind it was well-meaning, but the content proved irrelevant, consisting of minutiae with no major impact on design or gameplay, and a listing of such tracks as "AncECFull." To make the article pass muster and/or improve our coverage by centralizing it, he's moved in the music section of Civilization II and the contents of Music in Civilization IV, and added a track listing of Civ V.

    The Civ II listing should be moved back to its page if this one gets nuked. So should the contents of Music in Civilization IV, which is an important part of our coverage of the game. IV's soundtrack is one of its most important, prominent, and acclaimed features, containing as it does tracks from seventeen historical composers, tracks from one well-established living composer, and the first piece of video game music to win a Grammy Award. The Civ V listing looks like it could supplement a centralized article on music in the Civ series, but does not play a major part of describing the game. (Though I haven't played Civ V myself, someone who has could check.) So I guess I'm for "delete and untangle," but I'm worried that a decision to delete this page would be taken as a mandate to remove all it's drawn in from Wikipedia entirely. --Kizor 00:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Notable, When Music in Civilization IV was an article, from August 22, 2006 to May 28, 2011, which is more than four years, it was always kept, and never challenged - User:OttomanJackson —Preceding undated comment added 17:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]
    • Comment - Notability here would depend on meeting WP:MUSIC (which it clearly does not) or WP:GNG. The GNG calls for "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Such coverage is not currently present in the article. (That it was previously kept, for however long, in another form is a moot point. Please see WP:WAX.) - SummerPhD (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:V#Notability: "If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." No such sources are cited in the article or here. No objection to splitting off content to articles about individually notable soundtracks, if any.  Sandstein  08:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep. The following appear to be reliable sources directly commenting on the topic. [1] [2] [3] The question is how best to present the information on this topic. While I am not convinced that we need track listings for all the games, the music is clearly an important part of this series and deserves coverage. Eluchil404 (talk) 19:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Your first link is to walmart.com. While it proves the game exists. As for the music, it rates a single sentence. Next up is Worth Playing, apparently a review site. I don't know if it's a reliable source (with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy and all that), but it barely mentions the music in the series, other than to discuss one song, "Baba Yetu". The third link is to a press release. - SummerPhD (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 09:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The only notable part of the article is the one referring to Civilization IV, the other games of the series does use music from other sources, this article should be either converged into only passings to the other games with a major focus on C:IV or get deleted. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 12:32, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete While I am impressed that so much thought and creativity was put into the music for these games the topic is too trivial for an encyclopedia article. A couple of sentences in the main article would do. The detailed information would be better given on a fan site, or the official sites of the games. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 01:01, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Untangle the sections back into the parent articles, and then delete. I can, however, see an argument for retention of a Civilization IV soundtrack article, which is that a song from that "album" won a Grammy Award. Also, I do see that Allmusic has a listing for the Civilization V soundtrack, but as there is no review or commentary, this is more akin to a database listing, which does not establish notability. cmadler (talk) 12:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed. The Civ 4 soundtrack won awards, thus if this article is deleted please move the relevant information into the Civ 4 article as it is not in great detail there. Would be a shame to lose some good encyclopedic content whilst removing lots that isn't notable. --Taelus (talk) 10:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - see http://www.gamessound.com/texts/chan.pdf - dissertation from student in Nottingham, UK. also http://scholar.sun.ac.za/handle/10019.1/4355 - http://scholar.sun.ac.za/handle/10019.1/4355 Govynn (talk) 21:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Although PhD dissertations are generally considered acceptable scholarly sources, Masters- and Bachelors-level dissertations/theses, such as the two you linked, are usually not, unless they've been independently published (e.g. in a peer-reviewed journal) or "can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence". In other words, I don't think those dissertations are helpful here. cmadler (talk) 13:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The fact that this page is considered for deletion makes me put in my two cents. Please don't delete. Games are becomming more and more popular, for scholarship and what else. Music in these games is getting more and more important. Especially games where people put much thought into, deserve to be up on wikipedia for peoples interests. I found this site to be very helpfull and hope you won't delete. Thanks, a regular wiki visitor.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhkemna (talk • contribs) 16:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem is that interesting or even helpful are not criteria for inclusion. Notability -- meaning the degree to which others have taken note -- is. We measure that by coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the article topic. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the entire Civilization series, having spent countless hours over the last two decades playing Civ, II, CTP, III, IV, and IV:Colonization, and I'd love for Wikipedia to be able to include this topic in a meaningful way. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem to have been written about enough elsewhere yet. cmadler (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - This topic has not received significant coverage from reliable sources. The few noteworthy pieces of information (Grammy award) can be included in the parent articles. Marasmusine (talk) 09:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)*[reply]
  • Keep/Comment - Geoff Knorr (the composer for Civilization V) has LOTS of info and links on his official site. He has info on some of the songs, origins of most of the songs, and links to interviews and reviews. These are all reliable sources, and therefore establish notability.

Links:

http://www.geoffknorr.com/knowvg.html - info on video game music Geoff Knorr - Civilization V only. This also contains clickable text for information on 7 leader themes (Arabia, England, Greece, Japan, Mongolia, Ottoman Empire, and Persia.

http://www.squareenixmusic.com/reviews/chris/civilization5.shtml - review of music in Civilization V

http://scorenotes.com/soundtracks/civilizationV.html - another review of music in Civilization V

http://www.squareenixmusic.com/features/interviews/michaelcurran.shtml - Interview of Civilization V composers

http://scorenotes.com/civilization5.html - another Interview of Civilization V composers

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3181602 - another interview of Civilization V composers

http://www.1up.com/features/music-civilization - info on the music of Civilization V, behind-the-scenes info — Preceding unsigned comment added by OttomanJackson (talk • contribs) 04:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User:OttomanJackson

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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