Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oron Shaul

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The NOTNEWS/BLP1E arguments are policy-based (even though there has been a goodly amount of disagreement over the proper application of those policies), whereas at least some of the rationales for keeping offer little other than "the event's currently in the news" or "we have other, similar articles". Perhaps when things settle down a bit, it can be determined whether the event merits an article, but the consensus is that the person currently does not. Deor (talk) 08:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oron Shaul

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Csd removed, "as I believe the article does not meet the speedy criteria". No claim to notability: around 29 IDF soldiers plus c.500 Palestinians have died in the current events in Gaza: this includes six others in the same vehicle as Shaul. TheLongTone (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

weak keep/wait to see if coverage continues To the OP's point, yes there are many others who died, but this is the one that is getting coverage on TV and that Hamas has claimed to capture alive. This AFD should run the 7 days. By the end either we will see if there is continued coverage of his story or not. That should determine if the article is kept or not. Bowe Bergdahl was also just one soldier among hundreds/thousands in total. Additional sources already covering [1] [2][3][4][5][6]Gaijin42 (talk) 14:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

changed !vote to delete per WP:BLP1E which somehow slipped my mind. If this incident grows in stature due to WP:CRYSTAL ball/hypothetical prisoner exchanges or hostage situation or whatnot a WP:EVENT article can be created at that time. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I also mentioned below, this situation is no different than Ehud Goldwasser, Eldad Regev and others who have their own page on WP - Galatz (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF exists, but those should probably be deleted to due to WP:BLP1E and since articles exist for both the battle and exchange. However, I will likely not be nominating them for deletion at this time. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:20, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a new breaking story and will will continue to develop. All kidnapped soldiers even the remains of soldiers, have their own WP pages and get pretty elaborate. This article is short now because news just broke, but it will continue to grow as the events unfold. - Galatz (talk) 14:57, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "All kidnapped soldiers even the remains of soldiers, have their own WP pages and get pretty elaborate." Huh? I dispute your claim. Or did you mean "Israeli soldiers?" Edison (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not even true of all Israeli soldiers, notably the victims of 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid do not have bio pages; I just created them as redirects moments ago. -- Kendrick7^talk 20:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I was referring to Israeli, sorry - Galatz (talk) 18:13, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTNEWS, I can go and use the WP:POTENTIAL argument but in this case we are talking about a war, in which people do die. Even if he does pass notability, there is also WP:BIO1E to consider, is this person only notable for this one event? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest being possibly MIA and possibly a POW are somewhat distinct events, He's also being searched for which is also an event. -- Kendrick7^talk 20:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He has since been declared dead by the IDF. [7]. I do not see how this is anything other than WP:NOTNEWS. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:27, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTMEMORIAL — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As per Galatz. Gilad Shalit and other Israeli kidnapped soldiers have their own WP articles. The political and military repercussions/results of kidnapped soldiers are very big, especially in the region surrounding Israel. This is an onging event and very likely to have such results. --Universal Life (talk) 10:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do I gather from this that Israeli soldiers have automatic notability and are somehow more important than other soldiers/fighters/rebels/whatever? That would be interesting. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

comment [8] It seems that he is believed to be a casualty rather than a hostage.TheLongTone (talk) 11:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah this is true, however many times its had huge precautions and lead to huge prisoner exchanges just for the body of dead soldiers http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html?_r=0 as just one example. The example has Ehud Goldwasser Eldad Regev and 2006 Hezbollah cross-border raid about it. Why would that story deserve their own and this one not? - Galatz (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That goes against both WP:CRYSTAL and WP:OTHERSTUFF though. Every article on Wikipedia is treated differently and, it is crystal balling to say that he will become notable and a huge precaution will result because he was killed. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. An ordinary soldier probably killed in action. Not notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete A war death with remains not recovered or soldier missing in action. Not a notable hostage at this point. No inherent notability because of his nationality, even if otherstuffexists. Edison (talk) 16:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Non-notable soldier. No evidence he passes the GNG. Coycan (talk) 18:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Seems like an ongoing development of some importance. See: Kershner, Isabel; Jodi Rudoren (23 July 2014). "A Blast, a Fire and an Israeli Soldier Goes Missing". New York Times. Capturing an Israeli soldier — or even withholding a soldier's remains — can have a powerful impact on Israeli society, more in some ways than death. If it turns out in retrospect that this meets WP:NOTNEWS then I'd have little objection to a merge, etc., in, say, a few months time. -- Kendrick7^talk 20:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The abduction of Oron Shaul, either as a person or a dead body, is a significant event itself with significant worldwide news coverage. The people citing WP:BIO1E as deletion rationale miss that the event is Abduction of Oron Shaul, and this policy only covers when to create both an article about the event and an article about the person. As with Gilad Shalit, Ron Arad (pilot) or Guy Hever we do not need both and the event is covered in the article about the person. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Whether a particular abduction case is notable or not can only be established afterwards. We don't even know what's going on right now. Are we in a hurry to get this article written? Why? And what about that dozen Palestinian children in the UN school--do they have any kind of notability? They certainly get lots of coverage, too. But maybe they don't have names. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The real question is: why are we in a hurry to get this article deleted? Given the past history of Israel dealing with Hamas for either POWs or the remains of soldiers, it's not exactly WP:CRYSTAL to assume there's going to be a phase two [Edit: link removed] here. If there isn't, we can delete the article when it comes to that. Until then, what harm is there in standing still? -- Kendrick7^talk 05:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A tangential question is why you'd link a South Park episode here. I think that's in poor taste. I'll get off my soapbox now. Drmies (talk) 18:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I didn't mean to be flip, have no idea what my thought process was there, and have removed the link. -- Kendrick7^talk 22:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Kendrick7, I appreciate that. Drmies (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Not notable and we don't keep articles based on the possibility they might become notable later. That's backwards. If he becomes notable later, then an article may be created, not the other way around. There has been a lot of press about the events in the Middle East and probably will be for some time. That doesn't mean we create an article for each event or for each person associated with a particular event. There has to be something more.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Not notable. If he becomes notable an article can be created then. Tchaliburton (talk) 18:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Nothing to make this soldier stand out from many, many others who have become MIA and then presumed dead over the last 100 years from the start of WWI. Or really any before that either.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Obviously notable if he is captured. Notable while there is still a possibility that he has been captured. Notable while there is a debate about whether he has been captured. All of these possibilities are notable because they are being debated in the press, and because the possibilty that he is a POW would have large repercussions on the current war. If the body turns up, or he vanishes from the news, then notability would no longer be a factor.--jackbrown (talk) 04:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Except that the IDF seem to be fairly certain that he's dead TheLongTone (talk) 18:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Had he been captured this likely would have been a major incident. However, as it stands, he was one participant in a much larger conflict and thus falls under WP:BLP1E. It's possible that this may change if there's significant conflict over the body for instance.GabrielF (talk) 09:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Wikipedia is not CNN. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 01:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.