Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Otherwize (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 23:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwize

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Article about a non-notable rapper. Sources are passing mentions and nothing indepth on the subject. I don't see it satisfies WP:NMUSICBIO or WP:GNG. Jamiebuba (talk) 07:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Bands and musicians. Jamiebuba (talk) 07:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per both WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:NMUSIC. His only claim to fame is attached to Eminem, and that was 27 years ago. No notable discography or chart activity, and the titles of the citations in the article don't even mention the subject, but other rappers. 💥Casualty ^{• Hop along. •} 20:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:NMUSIC. WP:NMUSIC states "Musicians ... may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria." Otherwize clearly meets 3 of the criteria: #1, #7, and #9.
1. He has been featured in multiple documentaries (Where We're From and Freestyle: The Art of Rhyme), books (Words from Wize, The Come Up, The Way I Am, King Khule, Born a Villain), and articles (HipHopDX, Eminem.Pro, etc.). His prominence in the documentaries have nothing to do with Eminem, so they are not inherited notability.

7. In Where We're From, Otherwize is cited as the most prominent battle rapper in his region (LA) during this era. That has nothing to do with Eminem, so it's not inherited notability.

9. Otherwize won 1st Place and 3rd Place in major national music competitions (Rap Olympics '97 and Scribble Jam '99). Granted, one of those was defeating Eminem, but the other one was not, and they are still placings in national music competitions regardless of who he defeated. So this is not inherited notability.
He is also part of a notable crew called Project Blowed, which is also a subject of documentaries (This is the Life and Hip-Hop Evolution). He featured on the important Los Angeles underground albums Beneath the Surface and Cater to the DJ. Hierarchitectitiptitoploftical (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that the general guidelines regarding notability and verifiability must still be met. To address your points:
1. For the sake of being thorough, I had a look at a selection of these references. I find fault with a number of them.
Words from Wize is a non-independent work.

The Come Up, as best I can tell, mentions Otherwize by name only once outside of a footnote. Am I wrong? This is a WP:TRIVIALMENTION.

In The Way I Am, I again find his name mentioned only once. (In fairness, I'm dealing with a non-searchable PDF, so I may have missed something; the reference lacks page number(s) — are you able to provide any?)

Three of the books you cite — King Khule, Born a Villain and Words from Wize — appear to be published by the same obscure, 'indie' publisher (Parker Pubs). None of the three books have ISBNs, and Parker Pubs doesn't even have a website. A Google search for "Words from Wize" Parker Pubs returns only 4 results, and one of them is this Wikipedia article. Looking at Parker Pubs's Linktree, it appears the only platform Parker Pubs makes these books available on is Lulu.com, which is a self-publishing house. Note WP:SELFPUBLISH says: "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." Now, in fairness, it may be inaccurate to label these works as 'self-published'. But regardless, I can't help but somewhat question their value as sources in light of the above, even ignoring the fact Words from Wize is a non-independent work.

HipHopDX would appear to be a reliable source; I'm not particularly confident in saying the same of Eminem.Pro.
7. Can you find any other reliable sources that describe him in similar terms, e.g. "most prominent rapper (in LA)" or similar? Was this level of status sustained? If it were true (that he's "the most prominent battle rapper in [LA] during this era"), it's hard to imagine this fact wouldn't make its way into other reliable sources.

9. Fair enough. I accept those events meet criteria #9.

Overall, I still feel WP:NMUSICBIO and WP:GNG are not sufficiently met. GhostOfNoMeme 07:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 11:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per HopalongCasualty. Looking at the article's existing references, and searching for others, I don't believe this figure meets WP:NOTABILITY. Many of the references, some from sources that do not seem reliable, are good examples of WP:NOTINHERITED — his attachment to Eminem does not establish his own notability, and almost enters WP:BLP1E territory as well. GhostOfNoMeme 14:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would you be willing to address the fact that he meets 3 of the criteria in WP:NMUSIC? Hierarchitectitiptitoploftical (talk) 02:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I replied to your original message above re WP:NMUSIC. GhostOfNoMeme 07:40, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Gsearch goes to a Reddit thread, then Discogs, neither of which is a good sign. Defeating Eminem is fine, but that's more of a trivial item than notable to get an entire article. Oaktree b (talk) 23:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would you be willing to address the fact that he meets 3 of the criteria in WP:NMUSIC? Hierarchitectitiptitoploftical (talk) 02:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hierarch, please keep in mind WP:BLUDGEON. 💥Casualty ^{• Hop along. •} 17:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.