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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. seresin | wasn't he just...? 22:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pokémon (subculture)

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Pokémon (subculture) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Notability problem? - Face 12:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep as the creator. One source from China Daily and two sources from TVN, Chile's public broadcaster. I do not know Spanish well, so I wish to ask anyone who does to translate those news reports and use the information in them to improve this article. Esn (talk) 12:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - no assertion of notability, no evidence this is a subculture. We don't create articles for every new teenage hairstyle. User forked this content from the real Pokemon article when this argument was used to exclude this unverifiable use of the term "Pokemon" from that article (since it is unrelated to the Nintendo franchise anyway). User is citing Spanish language sources he does not understand, and this article provides little to no context as to what on earth this thing is talking about. WP:NEO may also apply. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I understand those Spanish sources enough to see that the kids are being described as the "pokemones" rather than the Nintendo characters. However, yes, I created the article without fully understanding this thing. I do not live in Chile, I just have a friend who does. I would really like someone to try and improve this article by using those video sources from TVN. As far as "notability" goes, wouldn't that be determined by the mention in several reliable, notable, third-party sources? Esn (talk) 12:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not the news. We do not repeat every Chilean 2-minute "OMG look how kids are dressing these days" news clips. --Cheeser1 (talk) 12:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes we do, if it meets the notablity guidelines.. and for someone that doesn't speak spanish to be given bearly two hours to track down sources is ridiculous. Fosnez (talk) 12:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural Keep the article was only 2 hours old when it was nominated for deletion. The sources included seem reliable, and I think the article should be allowed to grow for a few weeks before the next AfD. Fosnez (talk) 12:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: actually, Cheeser1 nominated it for speedy deletion only 23 minutes after its creation. The AFD nomination came later. Esn (talk) 13:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what people do when articles fail our criteria for inclusion. There is no grace period for new articles. Either they are acceptable or they aren't. Furthermore, Fosnez missed the fact that this was in discussion long before this article was created because this is a fork of some unencyclopedic content from the main Pokemon article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: When it was on the main Pokemon page, only the China Daily article had been found. I found the TVN reports just before I created the article. However, I'd say that even the China Daily article has some relevant sections. Esn (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sections??? It's six pictures and no news story. What sections are you talking about?? The captions are virtually identical, and at most they establish one thing: kids in Chile dress crazy (gosh, don't kids everywhere do that?) and have goofy names for their cliques (also ubiquitous). --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a short article, but it goes like this (along with captions for individual pictures): Pokemon, the popular Japanese series of cartoon characters whose name comes from the combination of the words "pocket" and "monster", is the most popular new wave among the Chilean youth, who dress and make up their hair accordingly and gather at afternoon reggaeton dance parties. 1) A Chilean girl dressed in a style known as Pokemon poses at a public square in Santiago. 2) A member of a group known as Pokemon combs his friend's hair outside a subway station in Santiago 3) Youths following a style known as Pokemon dance in a discotheque in Santiago 4) Members of a group known as Pokemon gather outside a discotheque in Santiago Esn (talk) 13:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the pictures showed quite large groups of people. Obviously it is very short, but it comes from a very notable source. I thought that this would be enough to hold the article over until more sources came along. Then I found the TVN sources, which seemed to confirm it. Esn (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've already explained to you once that you are completely misunderstanding notability, which has nothing to do with sources. Please familiarize yourself with policy before citing it. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Significant coverage in two TV news reports found so far and an article in China Daily. Isn't that enough for now? And besides, notability alone should never be the sole reason for deleting an article; it is a guideline, not a policy. Especially when some reliable third-party sources do consider this notable. Esn (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
notability alone should never be the sole reason for deleting an article - clearly you are unfamiliar with the AfD process. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the creator of an article doesn't fully understand the AfD process (due to being away from the wiki for a couple of months and forgetting some basic rules) is irrelevant to the AfD process in question, because the wealth of sources which were recently found already indicate notability. Esn (talk) 01:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Bloody hell I have walked into the middle of a shitfight here havn't I! Fosnez (talk) 13:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (edit conflict) Well, that's exactly why I made this nomination: to have others take a (neutral) look at it. We need some calm water here. - Face 13:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Chester1 Cheeser1 has already accused me of it on that talk page, so I'll defend myself here: It was not my intention to disrupt wikipedia to illustrate a point. The reason I created this article (and abandoned trying to add it to the main Pokemon article) was because Chester1 Cheeser1 said that the notability guidelines apply only to articles, not to portions of articles. I assumed he meant that he did not want this in the Pokemon article because it was unrelated to the Nintendo characters, which is why I decided to start a new article and not attempt to add this information to the existing article. I had a fairly good notion that he would try to delete it as soon as he saw it, but I figured that AFD would be a great way to improve this article; to get many different people to look at it (functionally, this is often the best use of AFD; it gets many people to look at an article who would otherwise not have bothered). So, if anything, I was trying to improve wikipedia, not disrupt it. Esn (talk) 13:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The AfD process is not the place for you to seek help in improving this "article." Also, please take the time to spell my name correctly. If you don't want to look like you're disrupting Wikipedia, don't take obviously hypothetical suggestions like "you may as well create a Pokemon subculture article" as your opportunity to say Ok, you win. I'll just quietly disappear now... From this article, anyway. (Ellipses added since you added the second part later.) That's plenty more than I had to say on this matter. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With all do respect Cheeser, but I do think you could use a small break. You sound pretty frustrated. - Face 13:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit frustrating when the consensus on the Pokemon article was that this was unsubstantiated, non-notable, unencyclopedic musings, but when it gets forked away from that consensus and I bother to try to fix the situation, I get the run around as if I'm persecuting this poor subculture. This "article" is nonsense, it has on content, no context, no verifiability, no encyclopedic merit and was created when somebody decided to fork out nonsense content from the original Pokemon article when consensus determined that not only was it not Wiki-worthy, it had nothing to do with that article. If that's not a reason to delete an article, I don't know what is. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There was no consensus, Cheeser1. You were against including it, I was for, and two other people weren't sure. Esn (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I'm sorry about the name - this was not intentional. Keep in mind that I may well have found a different way to improve this article had you not immediately nominated it for CSD. I would have called in some editors who understood Spanish and asked for their help. I honestly thought that the article, stubbish as it was, had enough reliable sources to survive until that time. I didn't think that your suggestion was hypothetical; I realized that you were being sarcastic, but I also thought that it could be a good idea. I did briefly decide to just forget about this, but I changed my mind a bit later. I do stand by the other part of what I said, though: I won't attempt to edit the main Pokemon article. Esn (talk) 13:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I do live in Chile, and can corroborate that this is in fact a relevant phenomenon in youth culture, social branding, stereotyping and marketing oriented identity construction in Chilean contemporary society. Unlike other youth trends, in Chile or anywhere, "pokemones" has the particularity that, as a historical phenomenon, is one of the most interesting cases of labeling and social branding i (as a sociologist) have witnessed. I don't have the time to explain further here, but i just wanted to let you people know that the fact that you don't spaek english is no reasson to determine that some topic is gibberish. This is a respectable local phenomenon, and just as well as we have articles about different cultural trends and their impact, there's no reasson to delete this article, apart from (US, english speaking) etnocentricity. Gorgonzola (talk) 13:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"I can back this up with anecdotes because I live there" is not a valid keep rationale. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you tell us what they're saying in those two sources from TVN, Gorgonzola? Esn (talk) 13:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to wait for that translation, as Gorgonzola/Bukharin said that he/she hasn't got the time now. - Face 13:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to direct all participants to Gorgonzola's recent comments on the talk page (13:56, 10 March 2008). Esn (talk) 14:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found another source by googling "pokemones" and "pelolais". This one is from Canal 13 (Chile). It describes them as one of Chile's "urban tribes": "The Pokemones dress very similar to those Emos. Pants fallen very, very produced hairstyles and haircuts that seem tijereteados, chaquillas chuecas and much gel, but unlike the Emos are not depressive enjoy the holidays and reggaeton." Esn (talk) 14:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A great source. Emos are depressive and They call themselves Emos because they are very connected to their emotions, on the verge of depression. That's obviously a highly reliable source. Those are the kinds of sources that were summarily rejected when Emo (subculture) was not only consensus-backed as "do not create" but Emo (slang) was deleted entirely. And at least that one had more sources. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted? Hmm, ok. Well, although this is apparently Chile's 2nd largest TV station, it does look a lot like MTV (that is, very "pop" and not very reliable). Well, I'll try to find something else Esn (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And who ever said that it did? This is not an article about the Nintendo franchise.Esn (talk) 14:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read his first comment. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just because one topic has the same name as another one else does not mean that an article shouldn't exist about it. Pixelface, I don't think that this is enough justification. Esn (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This page at chinadaily.com say "Youths following a style known as Pokemon dance in a discotheque in Santiago January 16, 2008. Pokemon, the popular Japanese series of cartoon characters whose name comes from the combination of the words "pocket" and "monster", is the most popular new wave among the Chilean youth, who dress and make up their hair accordingly and gather at afternoon reggaeton dance parties." Is the name of this subculture pronounced differently? I have to say I'm a bit confused here. What is this article talking about and where does the information come from? --Pixelface (talk) 14:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here, I just found this article. That should clear it up a little. It's, according to that article, currently the most widespread of Chile's urban tribes. Esn (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It has been determined time and again that journalists are poor sociologists. "Most widespread" requires more than speculation. How did they determine that? When? Compared to what? Urban tribe, subculture, and who is this person writing the article? Do they have the authority to make claims about sociology? Is this the same person who's going to tell us that emos worship death? Because I'll find you a newspaper article for that one if you want. --Cheeser1 (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll try and correct that. I also found a Reuters article. Esn (talk) 14:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I've struck out my merge and delete comments for now. The translated Reuters article is somewhat helpful, but more English-language sources would be appreciated. --Pixelface (talk) 15:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, I don't think we'll find many English sources, for the simple reason that this is an important yet local phenomenon within a small country whose main language is not English. Google does an OK job of translating the Spanish articles, though. Esn (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OK folks, I'm taking a break. Hopefully this article can survive for the next 24 hours or so without me. :) Esn (talk) 15:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Ok, sorry folks, last comment for a while... I found a few more potential noteworthy articles (I'm not sure yet which of them would actually be considered notable): [1], [2], [3]. (that last one looks rather ominous...) Esn (talk) 16:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: some sources, two minutes googling in chilean media:

  • Column about discrimation an violence against "pokemones", with comments by Claudio Duarte, Director, Sociology Departament, Universidad de Chile.

http://www.universia.cl/portada/actualidad/noticia_actualidad.jsp?noticia=127020

  • News report, Pokemones beaten by Skinheads and Nazi-punks

http://www.lun.com/modulos/catalogo/paginas/2008/01/28/LUCSTDI02LU2801.htm

  • "Plan anti poke-eva", a "plan" for the abolition of pokemones, thru direct attacks at "El Diario de Eva", a popular ptv-show very popular among pokemones.

http://www.wikipediars.com/wiki/Plan_anti_poke-eva

  • Video form the tv-show "en boca de todos", of the conservative catholic station (canal 13) criticizing the lax morals of pokemones. This has been a sharp point of debate, because of the pokemon practice of "ponceo", which is, roughly, to got out and make out with as much people as you can. In the views if Chile's very conservative stablishment, this is moral outrage.

http://enbocadetodos.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/pokemones/

Now, from my "personal experience"... This is not just "another teen trend". believe me, chilean teens love fashion trends, and every year theres is a new one (sk8ers, raperos, hardcores, capoeiristas, lanas, etc), but i had never seen a teen trend that 1.- is so clearly the result of media pushed stereotyping, 2.- has incited such a deep and heated moral debate about the sexual habits of our youth 3.- has sparked concerted campaigns to take violent action *purely* on the basis of style and fashion reassons, as opposed to political reassons, like the traditional beatings of punks and neonazis. I can translate the above if necessary, and if i find the time. Gorgonzola (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kids get beat up for how they dress. That's new? --Cheeser1 (talk) 16:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I will again reiterate that this reeks of Emo (slang), which was deleted by consensus as a nonsense WP:OR/WP:SYNTH-fest. I'm so bothered by how this article should have been nipped in the bud when somebody said "hey, let's not put this nonsense into the Pokemon article" and instead we've got a big, growing pile of "this is a subculture, look at how many news articles about it we can find" nevermind how reliable or sociologically sound those journalists / bloggers happen to be. --Cheeser1 (talk) 16:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
so your argument for deletion is? this is a chilean subculture. How is that in itself reason enough to delete it? there are plenty of good and pertinent articles about subcultures, like casuals, chav,gamer,hipster, juggalo (!), lad culture, lolitas, otakus, pachuco, preppy, teddy boy, teenybopper, wigger, etc. THIS IS GOOD! Subcultures are part of human knowledge, and having entries for them in an encyclopedia does not make such encyclopedia a database.
even although i believe that as a subculture it has enough notability, i also think that this particular subculture is even more interesting because of the impact it has had in chilean media and society in general.
all the above has been supported with sources that prove that this is not my personal experience only, although i believe that, as a chilean, my personal experience can be of help to put the article together and look for further references.
so please, what are the reassons that make this particular subculture article a suitable candidate for deletion?
Gorgonzola (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Cheeser1: Has the U.S. government started a campaign to stop discrimination against emos? If so, you'd have a comparison. Second of all, I'll note that the person who said "hey, let's not put this nonsense into the Pokemon article" was you, and the emo article still has a section about the recent usage of the word, despite, I'm assuming, your best efforts. You still haven't said how this differs from other subculture articles which Gorgonzola mentioned above. Esn (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for the time being the article appears to have adequate references but not easy to check. However, in principle I don't see a problem with a having an article on a Chilean youth fashion even if it turns out to be short lived. Also I don't want to be attacked by Chilean Pikachus.Nick Connolly (talk) 18:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Looks notable enough to me. The Reuters article alone would be enough for me to recommend a provisional keep. Powers T 18:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I don't get it - they don't look like Pokemon. Is China Daily confused and mixing them up with emos? Anyway, the article already has better sources than most maths articles so that's a keep. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not directly related to the Nintendo characters. The word just somehow ended up getting applied to them, apparently first as an insult and then as an accepted description. Esn (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Naming is a bit tricky. The only English-language source says "a style known as Pokemon" (yes, the accent on the "e" will have to go in any case). "Pokemones" is used only in Spanish so far, so we'd be creating a new English word if we were to call it that. We could possibly make clear in the article that they are called "Pokemones" in Spanish. Question for Spanish-speakers: is the normal plural for "Pokemon" in Spanish also "Pokemon"? Esn (talk) 03:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment with reagrds to the japanese anime, at least in chile, they are pronounced with an emphasis in the last sylable, wich would normally be written with an accent, according to the spanish rules af written accentuation (acute word ending in N). Since this is a proper name, normal rules wouldn't apply, so the name of the series is written however the producers want to write it in romaji, i guess. I don't know anything about the plural, i think i have never heard of it, but i can find out. NOTE: i'm no language expert. I'm no pokemon (anime) expert either.
With regards to the chilean subculture, in wich the word has lost its semantic relation to the original meaning, and we would be in presence of a neologism, the correct spealling would be "Pokemón", plural "Pokemones", because being that this is a generic term and no longer a proper noun, normal rules of accentuation should come into effect.
Finally, i am not sure if the article should be titled "pokemón (subculture)" or "pokemones (subculture)". A thik the first is correct, in keeping consistency with other subculture articles.
Coincidentally, i happen to know a chilean linguist specialized in phonetics. i'll see if i can get him to take a look at this. ps: should we talk this here or in the article talk page?. Gorgonzola (talk) 12:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is an issue for the talk page. This discussion is just for keeping or removing the content. Powers T 14:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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