Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Premetro

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Premetro

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This older article first triggered my concern back in February. Its single reference is to a passing mention. That passing mention does not define the term. None of the several dozen rapid transit systems listed in the article has a reference to substantiate that a reliable source asserted the system was a "premetro" system. I am afraid the listing of those systems here has lapsed from WP:No original research. I am afraid that this term has seemed like a term that should exist. But if reliable authoritative sources don't use this term it doesn't merit an article here.

In the event someone who thinks the term merits an article does find instances where reliable authoritative sources use the term in a meaningful way, I strongly feel that no city should be listed here -- unless there is a reliable source that applies the term to that city's system.

Note: web searches will turn up lots of hits -- in Spanish. These are false positives because their is a homonym in Argentina. All the Spanish language hits are to that system -- unrelated to a possible English term. Geo Swan (talk) 02:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:16, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The term certainly does exist and is used in a number of European countries (Belgium, which uses it officially for systems in Brussels and Antwerp, being one of the best examples), although not generally in English-speaking countries. It has, however, been adopted by a number of English-language writers on mass transit to refer to similar systems in countries that don't use the term as well as those that do. The article needs expanding, but I don't think it would be sensible in an encyclopaedia to delete it. It's most certainly encyclopaedic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:24, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- WRT to the assertion that Belgian authorities officially use the term "premetro" -- we have an article on one Belgian system, that was once called Charleroi Metro that was renamed, without explanation, to Charleroi Pre-metro. What do Belgian authorities call this system? They seem to call it "Métro léger de Charlesroi". Google translates this as "Light Rail Charlesroi". Was there some other Belgian system you want to suggest is officially called a "premetro" line? My google search for "Brussels Premetro" OR "Antwerp premetro" site:be got a few hits -- but none of them are "official" sites. Most of them are worthless aggregators. The pdf that looked like it might be a semi-official site cited the wikipedia as its authority. Geo Swan (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2013 (UTC) - Note Official name is Métro de Charleroi. I moved it back to Charleroi Metro. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Try this on the Brussels Metro's official website. The term is used several times.[1] So yes, I do "want to suggest" it. You seem to be suggesting it's a made-up term on Wikipedia. I saw it used in mass transit publications long before Wikipedia appeared. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:53, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - And I looked for a definition on genuine RS, and couldn't find one. Geo Swan (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - So now the Brussels Metro is not a reliable source on its own system? You're obviously determined to deny that this term exists outside Wikipedia, no matter what anyone says. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        Are you telling me you found a genuine definition associated with the Brussels Metro? Great! How about sharing the URL to this definition you found?

I never said the term was "unused outside of wikipedia." Why would I say that, when I know amateur railfans love this term? But railfans are not WP:Reliable sources. We need to have genuine transit experts define the term. I'll tell you what, if you can find even one genuine professional transit expert who defines the term, and uses it as if were a genuine term accepted by transit professionals, and I will withdraw this nomination. Geo Swan (talk) 04:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This sounds like a dictionary definition - except that I can't find it in an English dictionary! Probably explains something we don't know, and that's a good reason not to delete. Secondarywaltz (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The nomination seems to concentrate on the term "premetro" rather than the concept. This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so there is no need for sources about the topic to use the same term, but simply to be about the same concept. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but the wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, as per WP:NOR. If you really mean to suggest working on an article about a "concept" that is not defined by or used by professionals in that field what you are suggesting is original research, and it is simply not allowed. Geo Swan (talk) 04:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Necrothesp. Especially in a Belgian context, the term is definitely widespread. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If the article is to be about Belgian premetro systems shouldn't it be renamed? Yes, the term is used -- but on rail-fan sites -- not on WP:Reliable sources. As I wrote above, none of the non-Belgian sites should be listed in this article because there are no RS that classify them as "premetro" systems. Their inclusion here is is all original research. Geo Swan (talk) 00:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 02:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This article Premetro contains a tidy list of many of the premetro tram/train systems around the world. Searching for "premetro" yields a dog's breakfast of matches. Tabletop (talk) 11:56, 19 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The article contains a list that may look tidy, but is entirely unreferenced and consists entirely of original research. With the exception of the three Belgian systems none of those rapid transit systems belong on this list, because there isn't a single WP:RS that identifies those systems as "premetro" systems. You may find lots of hits when you do a web search, which is irrelevant if those none of those web search hits are to reliable sources. Geo Swan (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Instead of arguing that no sources exist, try looking for some. In less than 5 minutes I found [2] (China), [3], [4], [5] (2nd result in the book is clearest), [6], [7], [8], [9] (Buenos Aires), [10] (Riga), [11] (Vienna), [12] (Buenos Aires), [13] (Buenos Aires), [14] (Kraków). Most of the English language books do refer to Brussels and Antwerp, although there are other cities mentioned too, and there are plenty of Spanish language references to Buenos Aires. As a word that is seemingly fairly new to English it is sometimes rendered as "pre-metro", but the meaning is exactly the same. Thryduulf (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.