Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racism in the LGBT community (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep as per positive consensus and the absence of calls for deletion outside of the nominator. Admittedly, the article can use an editorial clean-up, but that's not what AfD is about. A non-admin closure. And Adoil Descended (talk) 00:02, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Racism in the LGBT community

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First off this article has been nominated for deletion three times. It is not a neutral topic and is actually homophobic. While I do believe there is racism in the LGBT community I have not once seen an article on here about homophobia, biphobia or transphobia among people of color. So heres some of the problems 1) This article does not describe how racism in the LGBT community is any worse than in the general community. Whether it exists or not in the LGBT community is really not up for debate but the fact of the matter is that if it isn't greater than the general community its really not notable. 2) By not having an equivelent of sexualism in the different communites of color this topic is not falling into NPOV. Nor is it neutral anyway because it speaks of racism in the LGBT community in wikis voice. 3) It does not represent a global perspective. 4) It has not addressed various forms of racism towards hispanics, Jews and Arabs. Rainbowofpeace (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 September 20. Snotbot t • c » 22:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Meh~~. switching to keep (I'm switching from apathetic to keep as it is a notable topic even if the current article is presently woeful) It's a perfectly valid subject and has been written about extensively and in scholarly work. However, almost none of that is reflected in the current article. If it was more encyclopedic and touched on some of noms concerns i would be more inclined to be a strong keep. It's potentially a great article but a parent article about discrimination in minority populations would be better. Insomesia (talk) 22:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Comment' I'm just saying that it is not neutral. I mean if I posted an article about say homophobia and transphobia in the Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Arab or Jewish community no matter how many sources I used it would probably be taken down as racist. How is this any different?-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 23:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The parent article for this right now is racism, and this is a studied and valid facet of racism. It's essentially one facet of a contentious area like Homophobia in Latino/a communities would be; also valid but maybe an article isn't really needed unless it's developed. There are books devoted to the subject but if we don't have a good article on it then I'm fine not having any article at this time. I feel equally about Sexism in the LGBT community or any other ___-ism in the ___ community article. We could have dozens of valid ones but in my mind they need to be good to exist. Insomesia (talk) 23:15, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is definately homophobia in the Latino/a community because of the sexism of machismo. However what I'm actually stateing is not at all that their isn't Racism in the LGBT community but can you actually prove it is worse than in the general community and therefore notable?-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notability isn't gauged on if it is more prominent in general society, although this may have been studied, it is gauged on if this subject has been covered in reliable sources. And it has. The article as is doesn't explore the issue very well at all. Insomesia (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it is not more preominent in general society wikipedia is suggesting it is in the LGBT community which is clearly not NPOV.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 23:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that just because the article exists, it implies that racism occurs at elevated rates in the LGBT community, just that it is a notable thing. Insomesia (talk) 00:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all as a LGBT person of color (Hispanic, Arab and Jewish) I find this offensive and I think it suggests that there is an elevated level of racism in the LGBT community as you don't see information about Homophobia and Transphobia in communities of color.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Those are likely reasons to craft articles on other subjects rather than remove this one. I agree that the article as is remains poor. Insomesia (talk) 01:45, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Adequate sourcing showing in the footnotes to pass GNG — multiple, independently-published, substantial sources. Nominator's arguments are one part IDONTLIKEIT and one part OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST, in my estimation. Encyclopedic topic. Carrite (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Racism within the LGBT community is a major topic in queer studies. There has been a lot scholarly work and press dedicated to the subject and it's become an even more prominent issue in recent years. Obviously the article needs to be expanded and should reflect a global perspective. The article's existence doesn't somehow incriminate or impugn the LGBT community at large. It's a valid topic. - Am86 (talk) 04:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in concurrence with Carrite's points that the basic objections, although clearly sincerely felt, boil down to IDon'tLikeIt and OtherStuffDoesn'tExist which are insufficient grounds for deletion of an article whose subject's notability is established both by journalistic and scholarly articles probing the issue's ramifications. Moreover, Wikipedia criteria for article inclusion don't usually consist of whether or not the topic itself is "neutral": we confine ourselves to requiring that the article's content on the topic be neutral. The dissenter is welcome to include reliably sourced information supporting the contention that racism does not exist disproportionately among LGBTs, and/or to initiate articles documenting the extent of homophobia in communities of color. This article need not demonstrate that racism is comparatively more prevalent or virulent among LGBTs than others as a condition of its existence in Wikipedia: instead, the article may focus, for instance, on how racism manifests in LGBT communities, or perhaps how it is better handled, or how it is less common than among heterosexuals. The article needs expansion, not deletion. EylonTheGreen (talk) 04:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This article survived a couple of AfDs, but then got moved several times, and ended up being deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Relations between the LGBT community and Ethnic Minorities. St Anselm (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Move to user space or project space for work. The topic is clearly notable and well sourced (I also posted sources in the last AfD), and the fact that there may be just as much racism in the heterosexual community isn't a deletion argument if sources do talk about racism in the LGBT community. (We might well put that point in the article text though.) However, the article in its current state is rather one-sided, it doesn't do much to acknowledge queer people of color as part of the LGBT community. I'd support moving to user space for the purposes of expanding into a broader (and re-titled) article on qpoc that included racism as an issue faced within the community, but that also acknowledged dual racism and homophobia from the outside, homophobia from one's racial or ethnic community, and - because it shouldn't be all about the problems - information on qpoc cultures, intersection with religion, ... (Similar to the recommendation I made in the last AfD.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about a rename back to relations between LGBT people and ethnic minorities? That way it isn't as one sided LGBT attacking ethnic minorities and becomes an article about racism and sexual discrimination. If people can agree on this I will withdraw my nomination.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 21:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and expand. Noteworthy topic of significant discussion and coverage in secondary sources. — Cirt (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and expand. As others have noted, there's plenty of discussion of the topic in reputable sources and it's a specific enough problem to merit inclusion. Argument about the converse not being on Wikipedia boils down to OtherStuffDoesn'tExist and is a reason to write another article, not delete this one. Avory (talk) 14:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and expand. I had no idea racism was a problem in the LGBT community until I read the sources. The BBC article is particularly enlightening. I can't think of any reason why this article should be deleted. Wikipedia is supposed to enlighten people and serves no other purpose. People who want to delete this page are just afraid that readers will learn about any issue that makes the LGBT community look bad. This is an understandable concern given the embattled state of the global LGBT community, but deleting this page is an injustice to victims of racism within that community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.125.236.10 (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There is an article on sexual orientation in African American culture. Nobody is saying it's racist to discuss homophobia among blacks or homophobic elements of black culture 209.129.243.100 (talk) 18:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.