Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rockledge, Arizona

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Mormon Lake. There is no consensus for for deletion before redirect, and the first !vote even goes on to say "adding any relevant sourced content" which appears to actually be a wish for a merge. Star Mississippi 11:48, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rockledge, Arizona

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This was not a settlement but rather a vacation resort on Mormon Lake. Could not find any coverage beyond routine legal notices and advertisements. –dlthewave ☎ 13:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Arizona. –dlthewave ☎ 13:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect to Mormon Lake, adding any relevant sourced content from here to that article. I am generally very wary of deleting geography-related articles due to the strength of the WP:GEOLAND policy and my belief in WP:GAZ, but this has no official recognition and per GEOLAND should pass WP:GNG, which it doesn't. It is telling that essentially all of the non-Wikipedia results of a Google search for Rockledge, AZ refer to a street and subdivision in Phoenix. Furthermore, there is no signage of any kind for this place from Mormon Lake Road other than the street sign for Rockledge Road, which appears to be closed in winter. Per GEOLAND, If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it. Rockledge isn't near or within the bounds of any census-designated places, nor is it really significant enough to include in the Coconino County article, so given its history as a vacation resort on the lake, redirecting to the page on the lake itself seems fair. Highway 89 (talk) 14:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see the road closed sign on the gate. I also see regular vehicle traffic in the snow. IMO, we should not speculate that the road is closed to the residents, nor necessarily assume that the public closure is not year-round. It could plausibly be a gate set by a homeowner association to keep strangers out of the area. Again, a phone call Monday could answer that question.

Observe also the active real estate sign (with a number to call).

IveGoneAway (talk) 04:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well. We're both deep in OR territory here, but that's the kind of gate that's used when a road is closed as unsafe due to snow. A homeowner's association would use something else, and what is this traffic they would want to keep out? It's a dead end track off a very long mountain road. I want to say of course that road closes in the winter, it's at 7200 ft, and look at it. But ok. Where are you seeing regular traffic? Elinruby (talk) 12:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, "regular" was clearly the wrong adjective; I probably meant "repeated", since more than one driver has entered since the last snow and more than one driver exited, probably one trip each way per driver. Best guess, in that week of December 2016, either at least one resident made daily trips to work in town (south end of the lake) or security is checking in once a day. Who knows? Somebody somewhere around there who is RS, that's who, probably.

"... what is this traffic they would want to keep out?" I am familiar with the habit of people trying to find water access around a recreational body of water. It is a road off of the main loop around a very popular lake populated by drivers looking for north-end lake access. Its name is Mormon Lake Road, after all. If you lived on that road, you would want to keep that traffic out. I have seen several rural homes around here with that sort of gate, but rural houses here have all sorts of other kinds of gates, too.

"unsafe due to snow" more like closed because the intermittent snows they normally have won't be bladed. That driveway would not be a problem for the residents with even 6". Am I wrong that most of the winter, the AZ high desert is snow free most of the time save for a few inches that don't last long, with 2ft snows every few years?

In this case, Zoning and realtors would clearly know if there is any there there. Besides, I am legitimately in the market for lakeside retirement living in AZ ...

IveGoneAway (talk) 22:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what you mean by "high desert". Arizona does have a handful of state routes that close from Nov-Dec through April for snow ([1]). Mormon Lake is maybe slightly lower than those but it certainly wouldn't seem far fetched to have a seasonal road around there. Even Flagstaff gets 90 inches of snow a year, which is almost twice what the big "snow-prone" western cities like Denver or Salt Lake City get. Those cities are also warmer, so snow in the uplands of Arizona will probably be there a good chunk of the winter. Of course, go a little further east and it's both lower elevation and drier... Highway 89 (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that Rockledge is the only road with a gate on that side of the lake. The realtor was not aware of the paved road closing in winter. That paved road has signs stating the rules for snow clearing conditions.

My call, that gate is "closed" all year round.

High Desert == Colorado Plateau. In 1959-60, there was only one heavy snow at west Kaibab.

IveGoneAway (talk) 05:00, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect per Highway 89. I agree, that road is closed in winter - this is also very plausible given the location - and if it's inaccessible in winter, it's not a settlement. Elinruby (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Mormon Lake with redirect.

"not a settlement but rather a vacation resort" IDK if being a mere vacation resort is any particular disqualification for coverage. One could strain to say that vacation resorts are never settlements (populated places) of any form.

Looking at the site today, it doesn't look very resorty to me, I really must ask for a citation for how it is presently a vacation resort. It could be second homes, or first homes for ranking lake staff. Aerial examination shows a typical, well kept-up development of rural-zoned homes; I live in a development of rural-zoned homes. Certainly, Rockledge looks much less seedy than Ash Fork, Arizona.

Yes, there was a "resort" builder there in the 1920s, but that facility does not seem to be reflected in the homes there today. In 1927 the focus at the location seemed to be on building private summer homes, as was common elsewhere in the National Forests.[2]

By the 1950, the homes at Rockledge are private improvements on "forest leases".[3]

To emphasize this, there is no longer a Rockledge Resort, but a Rockledge Summer Homeowners Association.[4] There are about 12 homes with utilities, not cabins.

On the face of it, this seems to be another USFS-sponsored "recreational residences" community, but one that did not get evicted and bulldozed like many of these communities, an example being Madera Canyon (Arizona)#History (4th paragraph). (Also Madera Canyon, Arizona). Over time, more of these "vacation resort" summer homes became year-round residences. It would be necessary to confirm this at some point; it might have a bit different history, but still subject to Forest Service permitting.

Really, a phone call Monday to Planning and Zoning can clear a lot of this up.

At least the Coconino County Planning and Zoning Commission is conversant with the name; discussing providing secure trash dumpsters, the commission asked last year, "What about the outlying homes, Rock Ledge area and such.. If locked how do all residents get keys." (February 23, 2022)

Over the miles to the southwest were larger settlements named Pilgrim Playground (church camp cabins),[5] Dairy Springs (campground and residences), and Double Springs (campground and residences). These settlements were evicted and demolished, well over 50 residences removed (1990s?). A historic building and the USFS re-wildernessed campgrounds named "Camp Mardear", "Dairy Springs", and "Double Springs" remain as examples of the fate the Rockledge homes somehow escaped (Location: Rockledge, AZ, 1965 Mormon Lake Quadrangle Topo).

There should be some USNF/Mormon Lake history here, perhaps more history in the demolished communities down the road than in the more affluent Rockledge homes that avoided the dozer blade.

IveGoneAway (talk) 04:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing much to merge, but if you want to expand it and merge rather than delete, then more power to you if you can do that. I kinda think you're extrapolating a lot from dumpsters and tire tracks, but I'm not against it, yea I applaud it, if you can build some content here. Elinruby (talk) 12:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sincerely, thank you for that encouragement. I am at the moment too deep into a couple of other wiki projects on Federal land. I have been wanting to contact Planning and Zoning about one of them, anyway. I have other sources; I just put down a couple for the sake of time. The Rockledge homes presently seem to be called a "subdivision", but I don't know of Coconino County or of Mormon Lake, Arizona.

All I think I would want to add after close would be to add a brief list of the four residential areas and the three church camps. Later, I could hope to list what I think might be an interesting combined history of the real estate under USFS jurisdiction. IveGoneAway (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No call backs today, its a holiday for the government, except teachers.

IveGoneAway (talk) 03:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK

I did get to speak with a realtor who has had listings around the lake, and has a friend living there. He could not speak to the histories of the housing. He says the area does get heavy snows and that the homes outside the town do not have do not have winterized water service and winter occupation requires hauling in water. The campgrounds have experienced closures due to fires.
Just as I got out of the car at home and Coconino Co. Planning and Zoning called back; very helpful and willing to talk. However, they can only talk about present zoning and plans, not the past, but directed me to university archives ... and their GIS.

Also, they can only talk about the 15% of the county that is not National Forest, National Park, Navajo Reservation, Military Base, and state parks; but the county can develop within the Federal land where there is compelling county interest. And they note that there are some private parcels enclaved within the National Forest, and those are subject to Coconino Co. zoning.

From the GIS,

There are about 80 private residential parcels on National Forest land on the west shore of the lake, some have no homes, some have 2 homes.
While there is no campground at the Rockledge private homes, there are Federal campgrounds next to private homes at Double Springs and Dairy Springs.

So, for the "merge", I am just thinking of a single sentence in Mormon Lake (second paragraph, after second sentence) now just to state the present situation:

On the north and west bluffs overlooking the lake are over 80 private USFS recreation residences in four tracts named, north to south, Rockledge, Dairy Springs, Montezuma Lodge, and Double Springs. They are built on National Forest parcels. While these are generally occupied in the summer; some may be occupied through the heavy winter snows, but water must "hauled-in" as their water supply is not winterized. The Forest Service operates older standard public campgrounds at Double Springs and Dairy Springs.

IveGoneAway (talk) 04:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.