Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sani Umar Rijiyar Lemo

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. The delete views are solidly based on policy, which is particularly important for a BLP. The keep views, meanwhile, show little basis in P&G. Owen× ☎ 23:55, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sani Umar Rijiyar Lemo

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I have TNTed the biography to remove material that didn't belong such as a list of books he's read, people who have taught him and student he has taught.

The original draft is a translation from https://www.alummarhausa.com.ng/2020/07/tarihin-sheik-dr-muhammad-sani-umar-rijiyar-lemu.html

The sources do not seem reliable and talk about him in a promotional manner.

My before search was difficult, but I didn't find anything that stood out as the kind of coverage that would meet WP:GNG or WP:NPROF. I can't tell whether his writings might make him notable.

I'd welcome input from people with expertise in Islamic studies. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Islam, Nigeria, and Saudi Arabia. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~Speedy keep~~ Keep — Recipients of the Order of the Niger meet WP:ANYBIO#1. The subject of this article received the award. Shoerack (talk) 17:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had considered that, but like any country's honours, there are different levels, with the lower levels being awarded to hundreds of people a year and many thousands over the years, so not sufficient in itself for every awardee to warrant an article about them on Wikipedia. In any event, WP:ANYBIO does not automatically confer notability. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea where or how you have considered the award, as it seems clear that you did not consider that in your nomination statement. That said, a WP:BEFORE shows that the subject is a recipeint of Order of the Niger. Orders awarded by a sovereign state are considered notable enough to meet WP:ANYBIO. The Order of the Niger is Nigeria's equivalent of the Awards and decorations of the United States government,and the Orders, decorations, and medals of the United Kingdom, and these are generally sufficient to pass WP:ANYBIO.Shoerack (talk) 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide sources that talk about the individual? The award is likely notable, but we need things about the person, not reports of what he's said about things. Oaktree b (talk) 15:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shoerack: At the point of nomination, I had been unable to verify that he had received the award, as what appeared to be the definitive list didn't include him. See my edit summary when I tagged it as citation needed. I have reviewed plenty bios where the recipient had for example received an MBE in the UK, but as there are over 100,000 such award holders, it isn't sufficiently selective to be a guaranteed route to notablity, even if it is an indicator. More secondary coverage was required, per Oaktree, though I note the article's author Gwanki added some directly after my nomination, which I've not yet looked at in depth. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is not about sources present in an article. Asserting that sources aren't there at the time of nomination isn't sufficient ground for nomination for deletion. There has to be a reasonable search which would, in this case, include sources in Hausa language. That said, OON is one of Nigeria's highest awards, and that is sufficient for the subject to meet WP:ANYBIO#1. If a subject meets WP:ANYBIO, it does not have to meet WP:GNG. Shoerack (talk) 16:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I understand the importance of a before search, and did one, as noted in my nomination rationale.

Your assertion that "Orders awarded by a sovereign state are considered notable enough to meet WP:ANYBIO" are not supported by experience - see the following random examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

By the way, your Speedy keep !vote doesn't appear to meet any of the WP:SPEEDYKEEP criteria. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. This is helpful. I believe the award combined with the BBC source and other sources in Hausa are sufficient to establish notability. I have changed my WP:SPEEDYKEEP to "keep." It would have been "strong keep," but your argument is plausible. Shoerack (talk) 18:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: The award implies notability, but without coverage, there is no article... This is typical [1], he speaks to the press about xyz subject as an expert. I'm not seeing much ABOUT him as a person. Oaktree b (talk) 15:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That you do not understand the contents of non-English sources does not make a subject not notable. Shoerack (talk) 16:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tried in French language African press sources, they also don't mention him. There is more French in Africa then English, and still nothing about this person. Oaktree b (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hausa is a language spoken in Nigeria, and it has nothing to do with the French language. Shoerack (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak Hausa, so I can only access En and Fr African media. Oaktree b (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should not express strong opinions or evaluate sources in languages you neither speak nor understand. Shoerack (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can only evaluate what's presented to me, and I don't see much here. Oaktree b (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody presented anything to you. Rather, you choose to evaluate sources in languages you neither speak nor understand. Shoerack (talk) 11:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of which seem notable to me. that's the issue. Oaktree b (talk) 01:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you effectively evaluate sources in a language you do not understand? Shoerack (talk) 14:11, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Pinging a native speaker of Hausa language, Ammarpad, to help evaluate the sources. Regards. Shoerack (talk) 16:28, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the current sources in the article and majority look valid to me. I will support keep. – Ammarpad (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The subject pass WP:ANYBIO by virtue of receiving a Notable award, and covered by secondary independent sources such as BBC Hausa, Legit and Aminiya of Daily Trust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hackesan (talk • contribs) 16:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't looked for sources, so the subject may or may not pass the general notability guideline. I would however point out that he has the grade of officer in the Order of the Niger which, if our article on the order is to be believed, is equivalent to an OBE in the United Kingdom. That has never been held to be enough for WP:ANYBIO. A subject must be at least a CBE (commander) to qualify. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:02, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NotAGenious (talk) 13:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: per earlier submission — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hackesan (talk • contribs) 22:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— Duplicate !vote: Hackesan (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.

It's not a !vote. There is no point in voting "keep" twice. Please remember to always sign your comment with the four tides ( ~~~~ ) Shoerack (talk) 11:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NotAGenious (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.