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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Consensus was reached to keep the article per adequate sourcing. (non-admin closure) CaptainGalaxy 15:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Squirtle

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Squirtle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Just like what happen to Charmander, this article is also having a problem with notability. Of all the sources cited at this article, only the polygon source [1] is useful. At WP:BEFORE, these are possibly the only good sources [2] and maybe this? [3]. This source [4] is probably just about the gameplay; showing that the article isn't notable despite the popularity (which isn't an argument). GreenishPickle! (🔔) 02:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because those are still not enough to pass WP:GNG. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 04:55, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh well, didn't saw that Vice source coming. But, leaving this afd still open for discussion if the character now barely passes gng. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 05:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/Merge Greenish Pickle got it right the first time, there's no need for backpedaling. The Polygon article is the only true SIGCOV I can see here. The Squirtle Squad as a group is not to be confused with Squirtle the Pokemon species. If Squirtle Squad is notable, the article ought to be about them, or the episode they appear, but notability is not inherited from the Squirtle Squad. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:32, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I find it a pretty strange assessment that reception for individual Squirtles are irrelevant to the species as a whole. I do not believe that the average person would look at the Squirtle Squad and differentiate it as a separate concept from Squirtle. Virtually all of the reception for Pikachu, for example, is about Ash's Pikachu, should that mean we should redirect Pikachu to the list and make an article called Ash's Pikachu? - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is that really strange? We have an article on Mordin Solus but not salarian; they are not obviously notable, or at least people have not found them notable before now. Saying that Squirtle Squad and the individual Squirtle from the anime makes the species notable is like claiming Mordin automatically makes salarians notable.
    Pikachu is somewhat different, because Pikachu and Ash's Pikachu are virtually synonymous. I'm not sure if some people even realize there is a species. I don't think this is the case for any other Pokemon, such is the amount of popularity that Pikachu has. (Addendum: Team Rocket's Meowth may be the only other one I can think of that people know on such a basis) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is what I would consider a massive difference between an individual Squirtle named Squirtle and an individual salarian named Mordin Solus. It's also not claiming that the Squirtle Squad (which includes the individual Squirtle) makes the species notable, it's saying that the notability of the Squirtle Squad is directly relevant to Squirtle itself. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 06:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Bulbapedia has a separate page for both Ash's Squirtle and the Squirtle Squad, yet you are arguing that they are the same thing as the species. I don't think that's borne out by anything online.
    I do think that, even if this page is merged, the Squirtle Squad is independently notable. I found a GamesRadar article, which can be combined with Vice and TheGamer. I wouldn't oppose its creation, I just think the species isn't as well-known. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course there is both "Ash's Squirtle" and "Squirtle Squad" pages on Bulbapedia. Bulbapedia would not cover Ash's Squirtle as part of the Squirtle Squad article, and they would not cover the Squirtle Squad as part of the Ash's Squirtle article, because the Squirtle Squad has individual characters that would not make sense to include as part of that article. I have no concept of what you think that separate pages for the Squirtle Squad and Ash's Squirtle on Bulbapedia indicates, because that's just how Bulbapedia works. The leader of the Squirtle Squad has his own article, just like the leader of Team Rocket has his own article, without the groups they lead needing to be a part of their article.
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 08:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I will point out a street in Las Vegas is named after the Pokemon, something that was argued as significant coverage in Snorlax's AfD. Now mind you I personally don't find it much, but consensus shows others including Zx above felt different on that matter, so I think it's fair to argue for some consistency.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 12:18, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure if you're directing that at me, but I never argued that a street name made Snorlax notable. My argument was based on unrelated sources. I don't think the street names have any bearing on the notability of Snorlax, Squirtle, or any Pokemon. It's just too insubstantial to say it confers any notability to anything besides perhaps the cultural impact of Pokemon in general. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My mistake there, I was certain you'd agreed on that as well. Your reference was the one citing Pokemon GO with the police in that AfD. Still I think an overarching argument in that AfD as a whole was "the character is recognizable enough in commentary to get reaction". There are mutliple articles noting it in light of Ed Sheeran, which while a bit of promotion, does have some discussion over the multiple articles. Then there's weird moments like this with the President Elect of Chile, where Nintendo gifted him a plush of it and he vocally reacted. These are small, but do show there's recognition in pop culture of the character to an extent. And I think after the Snorlax AfD it's worth to consider where that lies with a Pokemon in terms of "should this have an article"?
    In addition regarding the whole squirtle squad thing, I think you may be looking at the forest but missing the tree: the argument isn't being made that "the Squirtle Squad" itself is notable, but that the characterization it gave Squirtle in the anime is, and how long that has endured. It's not a case like with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for example where as a whole they're notable, because only one Squirtle in this case gets any commentary: Ash's.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I also believe it's strange to say that discussion of individual Squirtles is not relevant to the species article, considering that the appearances section is halfway composed of discussion about individual Squirtles. The article is clearly meant to encompass Squirtle and every variant, and Bulbapedia doing it differently reflects a completely different philosophy than what Wikipedia uses. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Squirtle already demonstrates notability based on the commentary references that Cukie offered as well as at least some representation within outside media with the references that Kung Fu Man cited. Based on this established precedent as well as how Bulbapedia is ultimately standardized wildly differently from Wikipedia, I see no valid reason why this article should deleted given how its meant to be a discussion on the species at large and not simply say, an article exclusively about Ash's Squirtle. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 00:56, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I wasn't sure about this, but ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ's claim that "the Squirtle squad" is notable but that "Squirtle" as a species is not strikes me as over-convenient hairsplitting. I don't think that argument holds up. If this article is deleted, no one is planning to raise a "Squirtle squad" article on its ashes. Keep the article that we have. AfD is not cleanup. Toughpigs (talk) 03:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above sourcing. Jclemens (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the above arguments. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 14:23, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and clean-up per above. Some of our Pokemon content is on the edge, but there is WP:SIGCOV about this character. The trivial mentions can be summarized in a more encyclopedic way, and the rest can be figured out through editing. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: As Cukie Gherkin and Kung Fu Man have pointed out, there are a couple of articles on the internet discussing the notability of this particular Pokemon species. I strongly agree that in this case, the popularity of the Squirtle Squad has definitely made an impact on the perception of the species as a whole as evidenced in this article from Forbes about Squirtle which was first featured as a Pokemon Go Community Day promotional event. Squirtle has also been promoted as a Funko Pop Vinyl doll, one of several species featured as livery on a commercial airline, and even as a kids meal toy from McDonald's. I believe I could transplant some of the sources from the Meowth, Charizard, and Raichu articles and use it to salvage the article from deletion. I am willing to do the work, but I am currently working on salvaging another featured list from demotion.
--Birdienest81talk 08:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which featured list, out of curiosity? @Birdienest8: - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
List of Los Angeles Rams head coaches Birdienest81talk 21:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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