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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. W.marsh 03:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Subrabharathimanian

[edit]
Subrabharathimanian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article was prodded due to less number of Google hits (55 for Subrabharathimanian and 21 for "Subrabharathi Manian"). I unprodded it because I believe that Google hits do not indicate notability or non-notability of a Tamil author. (Update: User:Mereda has pointed out at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chayathirai that the author is alternatively spelled as Cupraparatimaniyan, which gives some more Google results.)

User:Rmky87 believes that the subject is not notable enough to deserve an article on Wikipedia. The author is mentioned mostly on the sites which sell his book Chayathirai. User:Rmky87 has pointed out that Katha Award is not given by the President of India[1]. Also, there is only one site that tells he has won the "Best Novel Award" from the Tamil Nadu Government, and it belongs to the publisher.

Neutral as of now, although I am tempted to vote Weak Delete. Also see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chayathirai. utcursch | talk 07:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. utcursch | talk 07:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Keep Like it or not, Indian language works are under represented in Internet. This author is well known in Tamil Nadu literary Circles. When articles like Camp_Menominee (which are of now use to persons outside that country) exist in WP, and no one cares to AFD that, but want to delete an article about an Indian Author who has won the Government Award, that speaks of Systemic Bias Remember that English Wikipedia is for Global Audience and not only for those from Europe and America  Doctor Bruno  15:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You have provided us evidence that this award exists. Now prove to us that he won it. I hope you can upload the evidence if you have to. I know for a fact that Katha Awards are not awarded by the President of India as the original author claimed (that person isn't even mentioned as having the job of handing it over! Who first made that claim? The publisher?). Where would I find out who really won a Katha Award in 1993?
Yes, I remember that Wikipedia is for a global audience. I also remember that the existence of those other novels needs to be verified (and that internet evidence may be in Tamil script). Perhaps a search of for them using the original script is in order (it wasn't given in the original article). He is said to have written five other novels. I've looked more closely at the article and it appears that one of those novels I couldn't even find a seller for was already translated into English (Pinaingkalin Mukankal (The Faces of the Dead), I believe it was allegedly called). All four of the Google hits for that were Wikipedia and her clones.--Rmky87 17:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "Cupraparatimaniyan" yielded 11 distinct Google hits, almost all of which only mentioned him in connection with The Coloured Curtain. He had no results on Amazon.co.uk except through Google (see what I mean here at the very bottom), and his entry, Appa (what on earth is that?) is very spare, devoid of reviews of any kind, illustrations of any kind, and they can't even offer users this particular title. Amazon.com didn't have him either, nor did they have anything by a "Subrabharathimanian" (Amazon.co.uk didn't have him either). Oh, and no one cared to review "Cupraparatimaniyan"'s The Coloured Curtain on eBay, Shopzilla, Rediff (whose tagline is "India's online books and gift store", by the way), and that last hit is just a place that helps people find places to buy books. This PDF of a Sage Publications journal article looks very promising, but I can't access it from my University. I found it on a search of anything that contained "The Coloured Curtain" and also "edu". There were no article citing it on Google Scholar.--Rmky87 19:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There is much evidence that "Prema Nanda Kumar" exists, however. The hit count is sparse because apparently this is not the most common rendering of her name. Prema Nandakumar is, though. She's from India and there are only 142 distinct hits but they're along the lines of this and this. The pages containing "subrabharathimanian" "tamil" (I wanted to see if he was also mentioned on Tamilnation.org like Nandakumar is), on the other hand, go like this:
page 1: Wiki, wiki, bookdealer, bookdealer, clone of older version of our Tirupur article, bookdealer, infuriatingly inaccessible Journal of Commonwealth Literature article, redirect to the homepage of the (apparently) defunct bookdealer K. K. Agencies, bookdealer, and another bookdealer
page 2: clone of Chayathirai article, a piece of unreadable garbage with the word, "blog" in the URL, bookdealer, the German Wikipedia's version of our "List of Tamil writers", a Nationmaster.com article on Vietnam (seriously, WTF?), bookdealer, Italian version of "secure.hospialityclub.org"'s Tirupur page which contains a word-for-word copy of a passage in our old Tirupur article including the typos, a poorly typed message on a message board connected to Rice University (which seems to indicate that Subrabharathimanian wrote in Kannada?), bookdealer, and another clone article;
page 3: bookdealer, clone of our old Tirupur article, deadlink to K. K. Agencies, bookdealer, answers.com clone of Tirupur, customtoolbarbuttons clone of "List of People from Tamil Nadu, Enpsychlopedia article on Tirupur (yes, it's a clone), Enpsychclopedia article on Martin and Lewis (?), Reference.com article on Tirupur (clone), startlearningnow.com clone of our article on American freightways (WTF?);
page 4: bookdealer, clone of Tirupur article, bookdealer, clone of Tirupur, clone of "List of Tamil language writers", clone of "List of Tamil language writers", clone of "List of people from Tamil Nadu", clone of "List of people from Tamil Nadu", and a clone of "Category:Tamil writers";
page 5: clone of "Liste tamilischer Schriftsteller", the actual German Wikipedia' "Liste tamilischer Schriftsteller", another version of the same poorly typed forum post from the Rice University board, answers.com's clone of "List of people from Tamil Nadu", MadDig clone of "List of people from Tamil Nadu", list of books from Japanese website that includes The Coloured Curtain, repeat of previous page (there is a link on both pages to a page on same Japanese website which appears to be selling The Coloured Curtain), two more clones "List of people from Tamil Nadu", and another clone of Tirupur;
page 6: clone of Tirupur and a clone of "Category:Indian writers".
Oh, and by the way, Tamil Nation doesn't seem to have heard of him. And a Google search of just his name turned up only 8 more hits than "subrabharathimanian" and "tamil". And that St. Joseph's College link is a dud; he's only mentioned in links pointing to that page.--Rmky87 00:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and one last thing: India Today may be members only, but it is very Google-searchable if you know what you're doing. And you know what else? There was absolutely no mention of Chayathirai in any of their pages! The same goes for Subrabharathimanian! Isn't that interesting?--Rmky87 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: So if you cannot "find" an article about a vernacular author or book on Google, they become non-notable inspite of winning an Government Award. Amazing !!!  Doctor Bruno  12:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For notable authors, they can totally be found. By the way, he is also said to have written a book that was translated into English and yet the Google hits for "Pinankilin Mukangal" and the Google hits for "Pinaingkalin Mukankal" all go to Wikipedia and her clones—absolutely no bookdealers! And the the Google hits for "Pinankalinmugangal" are nonexistent. By the way, you have never given us proof that he won a state award of any sort. Let's face it: real award-winning Tamil authors get their names online without Wikipedia's help.--Rmky87 17:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Do you refuse the fact that there is a Govt Award or the fact that this person has won the award.  Doctor Bruno  17:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You've proven that there is in fact a governmental organiztion in Tamil Nadu that awards the authors of very good novels and translates them into English. Now prove to me that that first thing really did happen to Subrabharathimanian in 1999!--Rmky87 20:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Good Question. His works have been published in Kumudam. Does that answer your question. I am very sure of the fact that he won the foreign trip for his novel. There was a story in Kathaimalar (the saturday supplement of Dinamalar years ago) called as Singapore Pancha regarding that.  Doctor Bruno  03:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Your evidence is that "his achievements are not found in Internet" We too agree with that. How can we refute that. That is so simple. Is it clear. Our argument is that "just because you are not "able to find" something in Internet, that does not mean that he is non-notable" for the simple reason that Indian Vernacular languages are under represented in Internet. Now if you can give some points against this, that would be interesting discussion.  Doctor Bruno  03:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "Cupraparatimaniyan" yielded 11 distinct Google hits, almost all of which only mentioned him in connection with The Coloured Curtain. So the fact that he has written that novel is Verified. He had no results on Amazon.co.uk So waht. Most tamil authors have no entry on Amazon. Amazon is not a source for measuring the work of Tamil Authors and his entry, Appa (what on earth is that?) is very spare, devoid of reviews of any kind, illustrations of any kind, and they can't even offer users this particular title. So what Amazon.com didn't have him either, nor did they have anything by a "Subrabharathimanian" (Amazon.co.uk didn't have him either). Oh, and no one cared to review "Cupraparatimaniyan"'s The Coloured Curtain on eBay, Shopzilla, Rediff (whose tagline is "India's online books and gift store", by the way), Can you please tell me the number of reviews you have had for Tirukural or Ramayanam at those sites and that last hit is just a place that helps people find places to buy books. 0.01% of Indian books are sold through Internet. There were no article citing it on Google Scholar. How many articles on Google Scholar you have for Indian authors. My simple question. How many novels in Indian Languages have you so far read. ........ தெரியாது கற்புர வாசனை  Doctor Bruno  03:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I want to ask a question to all those who want to delete this article. Will you agree to keep if it is proved that he won the award in 1999, or will you guys, to satisfy your ego of not having to revise the vote, invent new criteria for deletion (as it usually happens)  Doctor Bruno  03:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - won a notable award.Bakaman 06:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Do none of you who want to keep this article see the importance of proving or disproving anything you say? I never said that his having written The Coloured Curtain needed to be verified. I meant that the fact that anyone who wasn't selling the book really caring either (except for you guys, obviously, and by the way, why do you only care now that he's on AfD? You had since March to get him up to presentable status and none of you even wanted to wikify him. Obviously, no, I haven't read any Indian works in their original languages. If I could do that, I would've transliterated Chayathirai back into the original Tamil script and searched the Internet for that in addtion to what you see above you. Why have none of you bothered with this, instead of making almost completely unsourced assertions? Oh, and by the way, Tirukural may have had zero reviews on Amazon.com, but at least it was there for the reviewing. And it has a properly formatted Wikipedia article attached to it. Amazon.com does the same thing for Ramayanam. This also has a much better Wikipedia article attached to it (true, it's treated as a redirect to Ramayana, but that's still better edited than either article ever was. Ramayana garnered excellent reviews on Amazon, by the way). Most people only edited Chayathirai to attach maintenance tags and to remove copyvio (that didn't happen until last October).

Good Question. His works have been published in Kumudam. Does that answer your question.

Of course not! The least you could do is give me the titles of those works (I want bibliographical citations or links if you can)! Oddly enough, many of their links to other parts of their are in English for some odd reason, even though the target audience speaks Tamil. Another "Logins Only" place. Anyway, what exact sort of work did he publish in there?

I am very sure of the fact that he won the foreign trip for his novel. There was a story in Kathaimalar (the saturday supplement of Dinamalar years ago) called as Singapore Pancha regarding that.

I can't find "Kathaimalar" anywhere on Google. Dinamalar can be found. "dinamalar" "saturday supplement" cannot be found. I searched for "kathaimalar" first on the off-chance that it might have a separate website or that there was a non-Google URL with that word. Your "Singapore Pancha" turned up zilch. Mousing over the links at Dinamalar turned up no similar words to "Kathaimalar". I did turn up their "Sunday Special" archives (which can also be found through Google), though. Their "sportsmalar" could be found just by typing in "sportsmalar". Is "Kathaimalar" still in print? Is there anything about him in the media that anyone can show me?--Rmky87 20:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kathaimalar was the Saturday supplement of Dinamalar years ago and is not in print now. It is obvious that you cannot find Kathaimalar anywhere. It is either because you do not know to search properly or because it is not in internet or because it is there with some font (one of hundreds) that cannot be searched. By the way their Sunday Supplement is Vaaramalar (வாரமலர்) and their Friday Supplement is Ciruvar Malar (சிறுவர் மலர்)
My point is that IF SOMEONE COMES TO THE CONCLUSION THAT KATHAIMALAR DID NOT EXIST BECAUSE HE COULD NOT FIND IT IN INTERNET, His mental acumen has to be questioned.
Tirukural is not reviewed in Amazon. Ramayanam (Kambar) is not reviewed in Amazon. That shows that only someone who does not have the slightest idea about the presence of tamil literature in internet (as of today) will use this as a benchmark in fixing the notability. The penetration of Tamil Literature in Amazon on 3/12/2006 is such that even Tirukural and Ramayanam are not reviewed. Just because they are not reviewed does that make these books as non notable. Any one can not see as to HOW USELESS IS TO USE AMAZON REVIEW TO JUDGE NOTABILITY of a TAMIL BOOK.
Award or no award this person is a notable person in Tamil Literature. Full Stop. Please don't try to use useless means to justify your decision about something regarding which you have no idea or knowledge.
The least you could do is give me the titles of those works You have enough of his titles already in the article.
I want bibliographical citations Kumudam does not have Bibliographical Citations. You seem to be TOTALY IGNORANT ABOUT TAMIL LITERATURE. No way arguing with you :)
or links if you can SO there is no world outside Internet for you. You believe in only links. Common. Wake up !!
Anyway, what exact sort of work did he publish in there? Novels and Short Stories. My God, we are talking about an novelist. Do you expect him to give explanations for Ramanuja's theorms or uncertainty principle. He is not a scientist to publish research articles, nor is Kumudam the Tamil equivalent of Nature  Doctor Bruno  18:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : Why have none of you bothered with this, instead of making almost completely unsourced assertions? For the simple reason that tamil works are under represented in Internet. There is no use in killing a Horse because it does not lay eggs. Chickens are supposed to lay eggs and horses have their own use. Since tamil works are not represented in Internet (Even no one has reviewed Tirukural and Ramayanam) there is no use in proving or disproving notability through internet. Is it plain and simple. Do you atleast now understand your futile attempts which are totally useless as for as Tamil Literature is concerned  Doctor Bruno  18:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Though in no way related to this article, My next point is to support my claim that AN IMPROPER SEARCH BY SOMEONE WHO HAS NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE SUBJECT IN DISCUSSION can turn a well known entity into "non-notable". For example [2] [3] By the way the Singapore Pancha was a story written in Tamil making fun of the prize schemes of announcing Plane tickets for literary competitions. Hence there is nothing special that it does not turn up in internet.
Is there anything about him in the media that anyone can show me? Good Question
  1. From The Hindu
  2. [4]
  3. [5]
  4. [6]
  5. [7]
  6. [8]
  7. [9]
  • Delete:While I am generally sympathetic to Bruno's arguments about under-representation, the article makes no real claims to notability. The two awards won are relatively minor; the Katha awards are handed out by a nonprofit that works in translation and three short story writers in each of India's eighteen or so languages win every year; traditionally, a different three! A 'novelette competition from Air India' isnt good enough either. Very simply, even on the basis of the unverifiable claims in the article, it fails WP:BIO. Hornplease 19:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant Delete. I'm sympathetic to the desire of many participants in this debate to increase the level of global inclusivity for the English version of Wikipedia. However, I find this particular article to be inadequately referenced as it stands. WMMartin 19:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete for lack of any sources for his supposed achievements. Put these sources in the friggin' article, people. I'm not wading through kilobytes of hot air on this AfD and clicking on dozens of external links to find them. Sandstein 20:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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