Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tahsin Pasha (bureaucrat)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Geschichte (talk) 16:56, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tahsin Pasha (bureaucrat)

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Biography of an Ottoman official who was a high ranking civil servant but but a minister, member of parliament or holder of any post that would make him notable. There is a single mysterious offline source. I don’t think this subject is notable. Mccapra (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: For reasons stated by the nominator. It seems this article was created as the subject was adapted on a TV show. Curbon7 (talk) 01:59, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 01:59, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I was able to find a section in this book, a small mention here and here. Made sure that it was the Hasan Tahsin Paşa that we are discussing now. I assume BOA, the only source in the article, is the Ottoman Archives of the Ministry (Başbakanlık Osmanlı Arşivi) and HH. SAİD (Hazine-i Hâssa Nezareti Sicil-i Ahval Defterleri, not going to bother translating :D) is a part of it. According to this pdf (technically page 254, but you have to type 296), HH. SAİD contains the "name of the personel, their fathers name, their birthdate/place and their job" from 1821 to 1925, so it's highly likely that he was in it. Not sure if this enough to establish notability, but it's a start I guess. ~Styyx^{Talk? ^-^} 11:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because there are not sources to validate all of this. Mtpos (talk) 14:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you said that it wasn't enough I would've said nothing, but no sources at all? Damn. ~Styyx^{Talk? ^-^} 14:59, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I initially created this article as a stub because he is an important figure in the Abdulhamid era of the Ottoman Empire. He was Abdulhamid's most trusted man, I think he is notable. The problem is finding sources about him, which is the tricky part. Abdulhamid era was not known for being a free environment. Sincerely, Adigabrek^Talk 15:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Adigabrek. A close adviser to a ruler would seem to be notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Must have been important in the regime and, per Styyx above, it looks as if there are more sources out there. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment thanks to Styx for finding these sources but the only ones I can see are passing mentions. The subject may have been presented in a tv series as “very important” and “Abdulhamid’s right hand man” but I’m not seeing any sources that support this. Mccapra (talk) 04:51, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep-per as above. Best Regards.---✨Lazy Maniik✨ 05:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC) Sockpuppet of blocked user Lazy Maniik. ✗plicit 14:02, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- I suspect the problem is that "bureaucrat" is too weak a descriptor, if what others have said is true. However we only have a very short article, so that the stub-tag should be reinstated. However, I am concerned about the number of times we get a Turkish bio that derives from a TV drama series, where it is not clear whether the subject was a real person, portrayed in a manner justified by history; and where conversely, the subject could be a person invented by the author for the purposes of historical fiction. Historical novels are a legitimate genre of literature, but those appearing in novels can be inventions of the author, who needs a character to carry his story forward. I make no suggestion in this case, trusting that the creator was acting in good faith. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That’s also my concern. I’ve no doubt the subject existed and had some state function, but what exactly he did isn’t clear to me. The fact that he featured in a tv drama doesn’t mean he was notable, and it might have suited the narrative to give an important role to a relatively minor individual. The Ottoman state was highly bureaucratic and kept excellent records; Istanbul was also full of foreign diplomats, advisers and others, so it really stretches credibility to say that there could have been a key figure in the regime about whom we hardly have any sources. Mccapra (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I originally created this page by translating this. The person is real, he has a book where he wrote his memoirs. It's just that we don't have many sources on him. Adigabrek^Talk

17:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Adigabrek: can you find a source that clearly states he was a trusted advisor of Abdul Hamid II? If so, he will meet WP:NPOLITICIAN due to holding a national office (advisor to the ruler of an empire certainly counts).VR _talk 23:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There are questions raised by both the delete and keep position whether there are sufficient sources to show that the subject holds a position that would pass WP:NPOL or if there is sufficient sourcing to meet GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Enos733 (talk) 07:21, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I have improved this article using a handful of the available sources. It should be evident now that this article clears WP:GNG. In fact, I'm eyeing a DYK nomination once the AfD is over. --GGT (talk) 23:34, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep clearly passes WP:NPOL. Thanks GGT! Very nice work! Cheer. VocalIndia (talk) 16:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, as he was a close adviser to a major ruler.Jackattack1597 (talk) 16:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.