Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terence McShane
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. No "keep" opinion has been expressed and the article still contains no references to reliable published sources, which per WP:V seals its fate. Sandstein 18:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Terence McShane (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Delete. Article lacking credible claims of importance or significance. (A7 removed.) Notability is not established in accordance with either the general or topical notability guidelines. Unable to locate sources to support the article's content. Cind.amuse 02:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete The person seems real, and the article sincere, enough. However I also couldn't find any more info on the person. The name is common, including a character in an O'Henry story and a firefighter who died in the Twin Towers. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I asked over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland if anybody had any input on how one would judge the notability of a seanchaí. Cloveapple (talk) 04:44, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I would think it's a bit moot. We're not here to discuss notability of Seanchai, but rather the notability of Terence McShane. The Seanchai article is supported by significant coverage, while the article about Terence McShane, lacks significant coverage in reliable and independent sources. This is the issue that needs to be resolved here, since we don't exactly have topical notability guidelines for seanchais, and neither the criteria for authors or musicians is met. Cind.amuse 05:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think Cloveapple's request is relevant. While we may not be discussing here the notability of Seanchai, rather the notability of Terence McShane, one must considered if an exemplar or instance of a Seancahí, by virtue of the set of circumstance that pertained in a cultural milieu in his period may gain notability merely by that fact in that cultural milieu. This requires understanding of that milieu. Hence Cloveapple's request is important. Given, a historical context, where an indigenous population is colonised and ,through statute, their culture is marginalised and the media reflects the interests and perspective of the colonising culture, it is inevitable that documentation would be limited. Furthermore, given the very nature of a Seanchaí's trade, as an aural tradition, this would be doubly so. Therefore, the assessment of the adequacy of the supporting material should be assessed by those who understand that milieu. An identifiable member of a historically significant but numerically diminishing cultural phenomenon, for whom there are examples of their work extant may have great cultural significance. The fact that some have seen fit to record and preserve this work lends some weight to the significance of this exemplar. A second reason for seeking the views of those in Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland is that, given that some in the linguist/cultural dominant group (ie British English) still deny status to the cultural group from whence this exemplar comes, it would be important not only to be thorough and independent of negative cultural bias, but to be seen to be so. For example, in Northern Ireland, an Irish Language bill, the necessity of which reflect the cultural marginalisation of the Irish speaker, has yet to be enacted due to resistance from the dominant English speaking culture.[1] TheMcShane —Preceding undated comment added 04:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment. In order to meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and notability, the article in question must actually document that the criterion is true. It is not enough to make vague claims in the article or assert an individual's importance on a talk page or AfD page – the article itself must document notability through independent and reliable sources. At this point, the article is lacking in this area. Anything less than providing evidence of notability, that is, support through significant coverage in reliable and independent sources, is really not helpful to a discussion, which would lead to keeping the article. Cind.amuse 05:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think Cloveapple's request is relevant. While we may not be discussing here the notability of Seanchai, rather the notability of Terence McShane, one must considered if an exemplar or instance of a Seancahí, by virtue of the set of circumstance that pertained in a cultural milieu in his period may gain notability merely by that fact in that cultural milieu. This requires understanding of that milieu. Hence Cloveapple's request is important. Given, a historical context, where an indigenous population is colonised and ,through statute, their culture is marginalised and the media reflects the interests and perspective of the colonising culture, it is inevitable that documentation would be limited. Furthermore, given the very nature of a Seanchaí's trade, as an aural tradition, this would be doubly so. Therefore, the assessment of the adequacy of the supporting material should be assessed by those who understand that milieu. An identifiable member of a historically significant but numerically diminishing cultural phenomenon, for whom there are examples of their work extant may have great cultural significance. The fact that some have seen fit to record and preserve this work lends some weight to the significance of this exemplar. A second reason for seeking the views of those in Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland is that, given that some in the linguist/cultural dominant group (ie British English) still deny status to the cultural group from whence this exemplar comes, it would be important not only to be thorough and independent of negative cultural bias, but to be seen to be so. For example, in Northern Ireland, an Irish Language bill, the necessity of which reflect the cultural marginalisation of the Irish speaker, has yet to be enacted due to resistance from the dominant English speaking culture.[1] TheMcShane —Preceding undated comment added 04:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]
- Comment. I would think it's a bit moot. We're not here to discuss notability of Seanchai, but rather the notability of Terence McShane. The Seanchai article is supported by significant coverage, while the article about Terence McShane, lacks significant coverage in reliable and independent sources. This is the issue that needs to be resolved here, since we don't exactly have topical notability guidelines for seanchais, and neither the criteria for authors or musicians is met. Cind.amuse 05:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Insufficient evidence of notability. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 08:21, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral - for now given the years during which this individual was active, and his cultural heritage, there is a strong likelihood that any reliable sources are 1. in Gaelic and 2. not available online. I think it's quite likely that such sources do exist, but I'm not sure if anyone will be able to find them easily. Thparkth (talk) 11:06, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. If he is notable, there should be references. Without references I would go for delete. Hohenloh + 09:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Just to bring to peoples attention that the recordings made were not as commercial recordings but archive material gathered by Peter Douglas Kennedy , one of the most significant archivists of traditional culture around at the time. The documentation of the material is already conserved in the British National Library, and after cataloguing, so to will the recordings themselves. I would argue that his selection of this recording for archival purposes represent independent verification of notability. The problem in this area is that very substantial individuals did not have any press coverage at the time. For example Elizabeth Cronin, to the best of my knowledge, had to wait to the present decade before any hard documentation from "reputable sources" was available - "Irish Traditional Singer: The Complete Song Collection. Dáibhí Ó Cróinín, editor. Four Courts Press, Dublin. 2000. ISBN 1- 85182-259-3." This despite her having a massive influence on traditional song. Prior to this she too would have been documented in recordings by collectors such as are found in Peter Kennedy's collection, and no doubt would have caused the same difficulty vis-a-vis notability. Peter Douglas Kennedy was associated with the great American folklorist and ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax. It will be noted in wiki's entry for Peter Douglas Kennedy, that he was criticised for personal attributes, but "his scholarship was rarely questioned." As an aside, With Desmond Hawkins and Ludwig Koch, Kennedy was one of those responsible for setting up the BBC NATURAL HISTORY UNIT at Bristol. With Alan Lomax he was researcher and joint presenter of the SONGHUNTER Series from Alexandra Palace - the very first TV production of folk music in Britain directed by Sir David Attenborough. So to have someone with that track record considering one worthy of notice, and for the BBC to broadcast one, I would argue is significant supporting evidence for notability. cf. Peter Kennedy --TheMcShane (talk) 11:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. A brief biographical note by Peter Douglas Kennedy confirms the overall description of the areas in which he was active [from Antrim to Donegal - in a time before easy transport a fairly large geographical spread], his teaching of Irish, his involvement with Irish Dance, and that he was to be found at various types of events.--TheMcShane (talk) 07:53, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. — -- Cirt (talk) 16:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 14:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- ^ Will the Irish Language Act happen in Northern IrelandIrish Independent Newspaper