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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge all; there is no doubt whatsoever that Kim Possible is a very notable television series; and that some of the characters listed in this AfD are of significant importance to that series. However, importance is not notability and the flaw that none of those articles are supported by reliable sources is fatal: any information in them is necessarily taken from primary sources and therefore original synthesis. That is the case even for the more important characters.

The vast number of characters involved, however, would almost certainly make the main article unwieldy so I will redirect all of those articles to the (existing) List of Kim Possible Characters, into which relevant contents can then be merged (please remember to keep WP:NOT#PLOT in mind and eschew plot summaries). — Coren (talk) 01:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Wade Load

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Wade Load (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Topic of the article is not notable, there is no significant coverage by reliable secondary source, in fact there are no secondary sources whatsoever and it seems unlikely that any will be found. The article is written from an in universe perspective and due to the lack of available sources it would be impossible to correct this without masses of original research, which the article is already rife with. The character in question is not notable in the real world and should not be the topic of an article. To sum up, policy (WP:V) states "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." - there are no reliable third party sources given in the article and I find it very unlikely that any wil be found.

I am also nominating the following articles for the same reasons:

Rufus (Kim Possible)
Monique (Kim Possible)
Doctor Drakken
Shego
Monkey Fist
Duff Killigan
Señor Senior, Sr. and Señor Senior, Jr.
Professor Dementor
DNAmy
Killer Bebes
Camille Leon
Motor Ed
James Possible
Ann Possible
Jim and Tim Possible
Steve Barkin
Bonnie Rockwaller
Yori (Kim Possible)
The Stoppables

Guest9999 (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep at least the major characters (i.e., Shego, Drakken, Monique, possibly Rufus) and tag for improvement instead; keep The Stoppables as appropriate subpage of Minor family members in Kim Possible for formatting/size reasons; merge the Possible family articles into a similar subarticle; merge the others into the appropriate list-of-characters articles. WP:FICT specifies that deletion is a last-resort if no other options are viable. Also recommend that Guest9999 assist by transwiki-ing the articles to the Kim Possible Wikia before any other action is taken. Rdfox 76 (talk) 02:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I not wish to edit the Kim Possible Wikia as I do not know the nature of the advertising on the site and my contributions could lead to more people being exposed to said advertising. Regards, [[Guest9999 (talk) 02:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)]][reply]
  • Keep the articles of Shego and Drakken, because they ARE main characters of the show series and, along with the two protagonists (Kim and Ron), are the more popular characters. The rest of the articles should probably be merge as some "List of Characters" kind of article. In fact, I'm willing to start working on that, but still, Drakken are Shego are notable enough characters like to earn their articles. In the same vein, check that Shego's article got to be a Good Article.--Alexlayer (talk) 07:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge all but the most notable articles into a "List of" article -- per the part of WP:FICT that is not being disputed, which is that deletion is the last resort. Exactly which are the most notable, I leave to those who know the show better than I, but the fact that one of these is GA class is indicative that that one should survive, and indeed shouldn't have been brought here. (That I could recognize Kim, Ron, Drakken, and Shego long before I ever watched a show suggests that those are likely ones to keep, but I am not reliable, only a source.) All the issues beyhond notability mentioned by the nominator are cleanup issues, not causes for deletion. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly, looking at the good article criteria there is no mention of notability or other inclusion criteria (such as [[WP:NOT#INFO). Therefore I don't think that the article having GA status and the topic of the article not being notable are necessarily mutualy exclusive. [[Guest9999 (talk) 04:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)]][reply]
Not explicitly, no, but notability is implied by the verifiability clause -- and given the number of people who have to look at and agree the article is good, it's generally a good assumption that someone would have raised a notability flag if it really was an issue. —Quasirandom (talk) 05:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Except that for any fictional character, however obscure, information can easily be verified using the source material. [[Guest9999 (talk) 09:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)]][reply]
Wade Load is hardly an obscure character. In fact he's one of the four main characters. Tahj Mowry, the actor responsible for his voice is always listed fourth in the credits, behing Nancy Cartwright(Rufus), Will Friedle(Ron Stoppable), and finally Christy Carlson Romano(the eponymous main character herself). ----DanTD (talk) 23:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I didn't have time to write individual entries. - perfectblue (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While still a guiding policy in Wikipedia editing, WP:V was not written with popular culture in mind. It requires levels of proof that most elements in pop-culture struggle too meet, especially since WP:RS advices against most of the third party sources that would otherwise be used. There are plenty of sources out there to verify the notability of these characters, but they are in magazines, TV guides, and on stage at fan conventions. Sources which Wikipedia policies/guidelines aimed primarily at academic subjects discourage strongly. What we have here is a classic case of some well written (and some not so well written) entries that meet with the spirit of Wikipedia being put up for Afd because they don't meet the exact letter of the law.

In this instance I would ask that the administrators presiding over this case put spirit above policy. At least in some cases. For example, the characters Shego, Bonnie Rockwaller and Doctor Drakken are all fully sourced using franchise sources. Every significant statement made is backed up by details of an episode which can be used to confirm them. Shego, Bonnie Rockwaller and Doctor Drakken are all notable characters in a notable franchise. They survived for 4 seasons and 2 movies. Which isn't bad since the show was canceled after finishing it's third season, but was relaunched after fans campaigned for it's return.

Wikipedia is supposed to be about the free flow of knowledge, not stiff unbending guidelines. Deleting, or even merging Shego, Bonnie Rockwaller and Doctor Drakken would be a serious step back for Wikipedia. It would effectively be saying that something isn't important unless it is academically important. Shego, Bonnie Rockwaller and Doctor Drakken are all highly notable because they form one half of the core of the Kim Possible franchise. Without them the franchise would not exist. They are well sources using appropriate sources for a children cartoon and the statements made in them are all justified by linking them to the episodes that highlight what is being discussed. I believe that this is a clear case when Wikipedia:Ignore all rules should be brought into play. WP:V and WP:RS in this case are just too restrictive on the grounds that no matter how notable a children's cartoon is you will pretty much never get any third party sources other than reviews on fan/viewer websites and the occasional magazine article in the back of a TV guide. WP:V and WP:RS are not designed to deal with such a situation. In fact applying them would pretty much wipe out all children's TV related entries other than a few contentious or historical ones.

Shego - Strong Keep. Shego is a primary villain who has appeared in 4 series, 2 movies, multiple video games, and a cinemanga comic. She plays a significant role in a notable franchise and is often portrayed as the villainous counterpart of the hero. Her notability is significantly strengthened by the fact that her popularity amongst fans directly influenced the direction of the show, with the franchise's production team writing the finale script so that she could come out of the series on top, rather than defeated.

The Stoppables Keep this page already deals with multiple characters.

perfectblue (talk) 14:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete all per nom. Guest9999's analysis is spot on. I doubt any secondary sources exist for any of these characters and most of the content of the articles either breaks WP:NOT#PLOT or WP:OR. Verifiability is also a sginificant problem. Doctorfluffy (talk)
A great any secondary sources do exist, but most are often ruled out under WP:RS because they are sources from TV guides and non-professional websites. Wikipedia regs are mostly written to deal with academic issues, not popular culture. Requiring a children's cartoon to have the same level of proof as a scientific paper is asking too much. As they stand, WP:V and WP:RS are inappropriately restrictive for the topic. This has been specifically allowed for under Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. - perfectblue (talk) 09:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Request to whosoever presides on this Afd

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The character listed above vary CONSIDERABLY in importance and notability.

Specifically, that the characters Doctor Drakken, Shego and Bonnie Rockwaller are considerably more notable within the franchise than all of the other characters due to the size of the roles that they play within the franchise, their importance to the franchise's scripts, and their number of appearances.

When reaching a conclusion could those preceding in this consider ruling separately on different characters, rather than in bulk.

perfectblue (talk) 14:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is a guideline, if it is inappropriate it can be ignored. In this case a number of characters are core characters of a notable franchise. Their notability is demonstrated by their multiple appearances across multiple media over a sustained time frame. These are sustained primary characters. Notabiliy was not written to deal with such eventualities, and is flexible. I say, flex it. - perfectblue (talk) 09:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the characters are important to a notable series it is appropriate to have information on them included in the article for the series. It is not appropriate to have articles on topics which are not notable in their own right, notability is not inherited (links to essay). The article for the series (Kim Possible) is not long (~17Kb) and additional information on the characters could easily be included if it is deemed appropriate. [[Guest9999 (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)]][reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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