Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willem van Spronsen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack#Suspect. Sandstein 17:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Willem van Spronsen

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This article is in clear and blatant contravention of WP:BLP1E and WP:BLPCRIME as the subject is a private citizen known only for having been shot by police during an encounter where they're suspected of a crime. Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack. You have misunderstood WP:BLPCRIME. It applies "individuals who are not public figures". We don't have to avoid naming the suspect when it's been mentioned in The New York Times and Washington Post. We have countless of suspect redirects in notable incidents. Also, there will be no convictions because the person is now deceased. However, he shouldn't have a stand-alone article per WP:BIO1E - so redirect. --Pudeo (talk) 13:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment that is NOT the definition of a public figure, as you should well know by now. Simonm223 (talk) 13:39, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Simonm223: Hypothetically speaking, should the name Anders Behring Breivik been suppressed until there was a conviction in Wikipedia? Obviously that incident was of another magnitude, but in principle. When the name and suspected crime has been printed in the NYT, WaPo etc. it's no longer "relatively unknown". --Pudeo (talk) 15:53, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:OSE is not to be used in WP:AfD discussions. Simonm223 (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Pudeo: second Simon223, what we have here is clearly a distortion or grave misunderstanding of WP policy. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack per WP:PRESERVE.A.Jacobin (talk) 13:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this implies 2019 Tacoma attack isn't going to be deleted. Simonm223 (talk) 14:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect or Delete If 2019 Tacoma attack is deleted, then delete this. If that article stays, then redirect this to that article. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack. Subject is not notable outside the event, so should be included there. Bkissin (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect or Delete leaning towards delete as it seems likely that 2019 Tacoma attack will be deleted as well. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - belongs in 2019 Tacoma attack with mention ^{17:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)} in Antifa (United States). ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:50, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Again I ask, based on what reliable source? Simonm223 (talk) 17:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All of the RS that published he was a supporter of antifascism, or the antifa movement or its cause. The info is verifiable as published in The Guardian, Seattle Times and AP News Wire, all of which include Deb Bartley's statement about her friend of nearly 20 years, describing him as an "anarchist and anti-fascist." His manifesto further verifies his support. Antifa has no central organization - just supporters, most of whom remain anonymous; however, they do have a centralized fund called The International Anti-Fascist Defence Fund which utilizes fundrazr (not unlike Go-Fund me) for monies that are to be used to provide immediate support to anti-fascists and anti-racists anywhere in the world, whenever they found themselves in a difficult situation as a result of their stand against hate. Although, sadly, Spronsen will not be needing any bail money. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- None of these sources mention antifa. And while some refer to the subject as being anti-fascist, various conservative editors have repeatedly explained to me that the antifa ideology should be treated distinctly from general anti-fascism. The last source is of questionable provenance as it's a primary source with no validation as to accuracy in a non-public facing area of a media website.Simonm223 (talk) 11:52, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Simonm223, stop the disruptive bludgeoning and do not alter my comments with inline templates. Antifa is simply an informal moniker for anti-fascism. One does not have to be a member of a specific antifa group to be anti-fascist or a participant in the antifa movement in the US. Stand down and allow the AfD process to work without further disruption. I will not engage further in this discussion. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:43, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They do have a centralized fund was what you said. "They - have - a - centralized" pretty clear what you're trying to imply with that WP:CIVILPOV push. And frankly it's the same POV you've been trying to insert into the Antifa article for a while. I've run out of patience with this comportment. Simply put, your sources don't ever even use the word antifa. Not once. Not in any of them. Except for that highly dubious link to a document you claim to be his manifesto. Simonm223 (talk) 13:51, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update - WaPo clearly states that he claimed association with antifascists known as antifa: A man fatally shot by police Saturday after allegedly throwing “incendiary objects” at an immigration detention center in Washington state was an anarchist who claimed association with antifascists — known as antifa — according to new details released by police. And there's more: WaTimes: In a three-page document posted on Seattle TV station KIRO’s website, Willem Van Spronsen cited popular left-wing historian Howard Zinn, said that “i am antifa,” criticized the Electoral College and accused the U.S. of running “concentration camps” on the border. Your argument has been satisfactorily debunked now stand down, stop bludgeoning, gaslighting, NPA, and let the process work. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:36, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Washington Times is not a reliable source, and the best that you could use WaPo for is that he claimed an association. That does not support notability on the Antifa page as you contend. And you REALLY need to stop claiming people are gaslighting you every time they tell you that you need to find better WP:RS. Simonm223 (talk) 14:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirecting is functional because people are likely to search his name and the information they are searching for is available at 2019 Tacoma attack.A.Jacobin (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Simonm223, this looks like it would have been an uncontroversial redirect as borne out by the above comments. If you don't oppose the redirect, you can withdraw the nomination and we can do so with little fanfare. czar 23:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: I have very serious WP:BLP1E concerns about this article existing at all, especially as the subject is a deceased person only notable for a crime that they will never have an opportunity to mount a defense regarding. As far as I'm concerned, this page existing in any form, even as a redirect, may make it problematic to prevent it from becoming a WP:BLP violation like this on a regular basis. As such, while I recognize many people have voted at the AfD for a redirect, I would mention that AfD is not a vote and my WP:BLP1E and WP:BLPCRIME concerns about this article existing are a serious, legitimate and accurate read of the appropriate policy. Simonm223 (talk) 12:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's common practice to redirect an individual's name to an event with which they're clearly associated, and this discussion is clearly going to be closed as "redirect" but if you'd prefer to wait until the end of the listing period, that's your prerogative. czar 02:55, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack (assuming it is kept). The BLPCRIME angle is a borderline, what is more relevant is BIO1E/BLP1E - the subject isn't notable outside of the context of the event. Icewhiz (talk) 05:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and indefinitely block article author. Clearly WP:BLPCRIME (he died while committing a barely notable attack), and the article author uploaded the photo of him that he took on FaceTime – we don't want police investigating this wiki article – and he also has spam links on his userpage. wumbolo ^^^ 12:59, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to 2019 Tacoma attack. THE DIAZ ^{userpage • talk • contribs} 19:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per WP:CHEAP. No need to give him posthumous notoriety that will encourage copy-cats. Bearian (talk) 14:48, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Redirect to a main article such as 2019 Tacoma attack.Forest90 (talk) 17:17, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]