- Image:Tdimm2.JPG (edit | [[Talk:Image:Tdimm2.JPG|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|IfD)
Did not reach consensus, the image was listed for deletion here and three users clearly said to keep, while only one was for deleting it, yet it was still deleted. A featured article on another pop song ("Hollaback Girl") features four images of the video or performances, and this article can't have one?? The image also had a fair use rationale section. Thankyoubaby 05:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- (From deleting admin) The argument to keep was that there was commentary in the article on the image. There was none. The image caption was ""That Don't Impress Me Much" video" and the only mention of the image was "It depicts Twain walking around in the desert, in her infamous leopard skin outfit." That was adequately conveyed by the words alone and the use of the adjective, "infamous," was an opinion and unsupported by any citations. The way the image was used failed WP:NFCC #8 and was deleted on policy grounds. -Nv8200p talk 12:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. For clarification, Hollaback Girl contains only one non-free image of the video, and the screencap there is clearly strongly supportive of the accompanying text. I wouldn't object to a different screencap to capture the style of this video in a matter similar to Hollaback Girl's non-free image. This was just a singer closeup. Videmus Omnia Talk 17:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion Image was improperly deleted. Deleting admin contravened clear and emphatic language of Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/Instructions for administrators: "Before deleting an image, make sure of the following...No objections to its deletion have been raised, or a consensus to delete has been reached." In this case, two objections to the image's deletion were raised on the basis of its value (a fundamental criterion, per NFCC#8) and there was obviously no consensus to delete. It was claimed neither at the point of nomination nor deletion that the image failed the sort of objectively testable requirement that might reasonably trump administrators' instruction. In deleting, admin improperly valued his/her personal opinion about a subjective matter--the value of the image to the article--over the clear language of the instruction.—DCGeist 16:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The non-free content criteria policy has to be given priority over the deletion guidelines. -Nv8200p talk 03:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And, if you'll excuse the inevitable humor of the phrasing, the policy for determining whether the policy has been satisifed is expressed in the administrators' instructions, which have a weight beyond those of guidelines.—DCGeist 04:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The page you are quoting from was a feeble attempt to condense the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators. Look at the article history. There are only a few contributors and an insignificant amount of discussion on the page. That page does not have enough weight to circumvent the NFCC policy. -Nv8200p talk 15:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I did look at the instructions' edit history. Even more significantly, I looked at the prominent manner in which the primary IfD page links to the instructions: Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion#Instructions_for_administrators. Not so feeble.—DCGeist 17:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, the Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/Instructions for administrators were poorly derived from a guideline. The reason to delete was based on policy. -Nv8200p talk 20:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion per consensus in IfD. — xDanielx T/C 23:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - No consensus for such and this represents another example of improper admin behavior and flouting of our own policies. When is this going to end? Badagnani 07:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It will never end, admins will always make mistakes, admins are human too. Of course assuming that all admins are maliciously ignoring our own community set policies is going a bit overboard. Most likely the admin who did the close thought he/she was doing it per our policies, and doing the action in good faith, remember these discussions are not a vote, admins are charged to figure out the stronger argument, and they don't always get it right... but they close 100-200 articles for deletion debates daily, more then 500 speedy deletion canidates daily and end up with about 5 improper decisions. (as measured by a very unscientific average of what goes through DRV). Thats really not that bad of a hit/miss ratio ;) —— Eagle101Need help? 20:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to note that I do endorse this deletion, policy trumps, want the policy changed, go to the policy's talk page. —— Eagle101Need help? 04:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Correction Neither I nor anyone elsewho has voted to overturn has called for a change in policy. We want the policy enforced. Here's the policy, once again, for your benefit straight from the deletion policy page: "The discussion lasts at least five days; afterwards, pages are deleted by an administrator if there is consensus to do so. If there is no consensus, the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging or redirecting as appropriate."—DCGeist 04:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What you are referring to applies in the case of deletions based on discussions of notability, etc. If the article or image violates U. S. Law or Wikipedia policy, the admin will delete it even if there is no consensus. Based on numerous previous discussions and DRVs, the image failed the current WP:NFCC policy as currently written and also the screenshot tag requirement for critical commentary. -Nv8200p talk 12:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, Nv8200p, that's simply wrong. That's not policy. I really have to ask you as an admin who wants to participate in closing deletion discussions and deleting images to refamiliarize yourself with the deletion policy. Please reread in particular Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#Deletion_discussion. There is absolutely no distinction drawn between "deletions based on discussions of notability" vs. those based on "Wikipedia policy"; admins are not directed to abide by consensus in one case, but essentially make the determination themselves in others. You may have been led to believe it's true; several admins have been acting as if it's true--but it's not. It is quite evidently not part of our deletion policy. (Remember, for the extreme legal case of blatant copyright violations, policy provides for a special process.) Consensus is determinitive in all deletion discussions.
- Here is the deletion policy: The discussion determines by consensus whether the image adheres to Wikipedia image policy--the discussion may center on an image's notability, on whether an image is obsolete, on whether it has been legitimately tagged, on whether it is of sufficiently high visual quality, or anything else covered in Wikipedia image policy. If no consensus to delete is arrived at in that discussion, the image is not deleted. The admin who chooses to close does not get to determine on his or her own whether the consensus or lack thereof is wise or correct, simply whether consensus to delete exists or not--not by "headcount," not by "vote," but by a common sense reckoning of consensus just like anywhere else on Wikipedia. If there is a discussion and consensus is to keep, obviously the image is kept. If there is a discussion and no consensus, the image is kept. If there is a discussion and there is doubt as to whether there is consensus to delete or not, the image is kept. That is the deletion policy as expressed on the policy page and underscored by the guideline. That a culture of violating the policy has emerged does not legitimate such violations.—DCGeist 15:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure per Nv8200p's rationale and comments here. The use of non-free content is constrained by policy, and IfD cannot override that. The only way to have non-free content kept is to demonstrate that it is being used in accordance with policy. No such case was or has been made for this image. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What you've written is (like the previous defense statement) simply not true. A case was made in IfD that this image was being used in accordance with policy, clearly responding to nominator's NFCC#8 concern. User:Jheald made it: "Keep. Appropriately illustrative of setting, styling, and odd leopard skin outfit, discussed in the article." Another case was made in IfD that this image was being used in accordance with policy. User:Knulclunk made it: "Used commentary as permitted by WP:NFC#Examples of acceptable use: Film and television screen shots:"For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television." Keep for video commentary only." User:Thankyoubaby also voted to keep, clearly agreeing with the case made by Knulclunk. You may not be impressed by the cases made that the image was being used in accordance in policy; you may disagree with them. But please don't misrepresent the facts by saying they weren't made. The consensus, based on the arguments made in discussion, was clearly to keep the image. Closing admin thus violated Wikipedia policy by deleting.—DCGeist 17:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, none of the numerous one line comments discussed why the presence of the image would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding or why the image could not be replaced by text that serves a similar function as required by NFCC policy, item 8. -Nv8200p talk 20:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Query OK, I think we're at least talking in the same room here. If I'm interpreting your point correctly, you're saying that in judging whether consensus to delete existed, you discounted Jheald's and Knulclunk's statements because they did not address nominator's NFCC#8 concerns. Now let's take each statement, applying common sense. I'll just examine Jheald's in this query.
- When Jheald writes, "Appropriately illustrative of setting, styling, and odd leopard skin outfit," isn't it common sense to conclude that s/he is arguing that the image significantly increases readers' understanding of that setting, that styling, and that leopard skin outfit? When Jheald points out, "as discussed in the article," isn't it common sense to conclude that s/he is pointing out that the text underscores the significance of these matters to the topic? Isn't it reasonable to conclude that Jheald believes that omitting this material would be detrimental to readers' understanding of the topic?
- As another way of phrasing my query, would you not have discounted Jheald's comment if it had been phrased thus: ""Appropriately illustrative of setting, styling, and odd leopard skin outfit that significantly increases readers' understanding of these matters. The significance of these matters to an understanding of the topic is discussed in the text. Omitting the image would be detrimental to understanding these particular matters. While the text of the article can explain the significance of these matters, it cannot make the reader fully understand them in the absence of the image. Use of the image thus adheres to the requirements of relevant Wikipedia image policy for non-free content--item 8"? Or would you still have discounted Jheald's position in deciding whether consensus to delete existed?—DCGeist 20:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We'll, it's better, but you can throw in as many "significants" as you want, but that don't make it so. Look at this article. Paragraph 7 provides cited critical commentary about the image on the right and the caption of the image ties the image back to the text. -Nv8200p talk 03:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's a superior article. (Though it does have a photo captioned "Iconic publicity photo of Anthony Perkins" without a reliable source. Shall we IfD that?) But the point here is what your job is when you elect to close an IfD discussion. Policy makes it clear that's it not to decide who's right and who's wrong, it's to decide what the consensus, if any, was. Because consensus is not based on a simple headcount or vote, you may be called upon in certain cases to weigh arguments a bit more or less heavily, but in general, one participant's voice is no more or less valuable than any other's. I simply cannot see how you could reasonably conclude that Videmus Omnia's lone argument in support of deletion clearly outweighed Jheald's and Knulclunk's more substantial ones for retention (I am entirely discounting Thankyoubaby's keep vote). I have to say, in other words, that I believe you did not base your deletion on a reasonable assessment of the discussion and the consensus it reached. I believe the evidence--including the wording of your rationale and even your response to my query here (and I do appreciate you responding)--demonstrates that you based your deletion on your own assessment of the image's adherence to NFCC, in violation of deletion discussion policy.—DCGeist 03:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
|
