- John Allen (Irish cricketer) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Incorrect closure. The closing reason states "no sources, no article". The article was sourced, so the closing admin has told a white lie. The votes were 6 keep, 4 delete. Clearly the result of this discussion was not delete, and although keep edges it, I'd say no consensus overall. Reasons for keep were valid and the subject played for a national sports team in a major sport. StickyWicket (talk) 20:06, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn My keep comment in the AfD contains a link to an article about the subject, which I'm 99% sure I cited in the article too. Which would therefore debunk the "no sources, no article" mistake by the closer. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 20:19, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Not seeing a delete result here but could possibly understand it if there was valid rationale. However, the closing "no sources" statement is demonstrably false; as demonstrated by the CE bio which also cited at least one published book. wjematherplease leave a message... 20:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to no consensus I was surprised at this closer when I saw it given that the Cricket Europe source is significant coverage, so there was certainly some coverage, if only it was one article. One delete vote suggested that Cricket Europe was a self-published website, which was debunked as it was written by a cricket historian who contributes for Wisden, a known reliable source. I wouldn't say it's a clear keep, but certainly no consensus, although I'm not sure that this article needs to go through AfD again in the near future. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I participated in the discussion so won't be bolding my comments here, as did the three overturn voters immediately above me, but the close was absolutely correct - significant coverage is a requirement for an article, as much as the cricket community who show up and !vote keep on articles which don't meet GNG when challenged might not like to accept that. AfD is also not a vote - it's about the strength of the arguments - and even the keep !voters essentially acknowledged there wasn't enough for GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 21:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The rationale was per SIGCOV. No sources, no article... There was clearly sources in that article, so that debunks the second half of the closing argument. In terms of the SIGCOV the Cricket Europe biography is secondary, independent and reliable. His passing of a sports SNG and coverage in newspaper snippets mean he's likely presumed notable. As I said above, yes it's only one source, but to say there's no SIGCOV and no sources is a lie. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 21:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- No, there's a clear distinction between having a source in an article and having significant coverage, which is a requirement of WP:GNG. Also, Cricket Europe is clearly self-published. He's presumed notable until we go to an AfD and decide the coverage doesn't pass GNG, which is what happened here. Apart from Cricket Europe, there was no discussion about any other possible source which would demonstrate coverage which meant he passed the GNG - it's all "well we have an SNG!", even though the cricket SNG is infamous for being poorly calibrated to GNG, and unable to predict when a player will have enough coverage to pass GNG. Weight of arguments is important. SportingFlyer T·C 21:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Cricket Europe is a site run by a series of cricket historians, in the same way that Wisden is published by a series of cricket historians. It's not a fan site or published blog. The article went to AfD and was decided by yourself that it didn't pass SIGCOV. Two other users just posted delete fails SIGCOV without expanding on their point, against what is said to be done at WP:AFDFORMAT. The Cricket Europe bio also suggests that Billy Platt has written on the subject, suggesting further notability. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 21:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Self-published sources don't have to be fan sites or published blogs - it just means there's no independent editorial coverage, and it doesn't necessarily disqualify the source. What we're reviewing here is if the closer made a mistake or not, though, not re-litigating the AfD. SportingFlyer T·C 21:49, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Cricket Europe is
- Overturn - when the rationale for taking the individual's article to deletion is, "No obituary in Wisden" - is that how far we've descended as a project? What needs to happen is to make articles like this visible to the project first and foremost before sending to deletion. Note that rationales for deletion have become more and more tenuous as time goes on. Has the nature of collaboration within our project completely gone? Let's clarify, this isn't a re-do of the deletion discussion. This is an evaluation of the discussion. And the simple answer is, the discussion happened in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and there was not enough mileage to make this discussion valid.Take these discussions to an appropriate place first. Ensure enough eyes have seen it first and are able to provide what you may or may not consider "appropriate" sources. The Taking to AfD must not be a first resort. It is quite clear that, when given the chance for prior discussion, expansion can happen before an AfD discussion takes place. Bobo. 21:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Please recheck my rationale. I haven't said anything like "No obituary in Wisden". Störm (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The deletion rationale in the close comment is at best an oversimplification, but the discussion itself appears to me to have had a clear consensus that the only in-depth source that could be found was the one on cricketeurope, and (whether or not that one was reliable, not agreed on in the discussion) that one source was not enough for GNG. The article as deleted did include another source that could plausibly have counted, a contemporary newspaper article with the subject's name in its headline, but even wjemather who added it discounted it and only considered the cricketeurope as counting towards GNG. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - I second what David Eppstein has said above. CricketEurope's profile about the cricketer can only be used for verifiability. No one was sure if a profile in cricketeurope counts towards notability. All other sources added were trivial in nature and were used just to inflate the article. Störm (talk) 00:50, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to No Consensus - AFD is not a vote count, but the vote count should not be ignored without a sound policy-based reason based on strength of arguments. The closer's rationale does not address the Keep arguments at all. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:31, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - The closer was correct because there were zero reliable sources providing significant coverage. The delete votes asserted a lack of SIGCOV, with the first delete vote highlighting the problem with the cited biography being self-published on a fan website. None of the following keep votes addressed the lack of SIGCOV or reliable sourcing. Perhaps the closing rationale was overly concise but this isn't Deletion Rationale Review.----Pontificalibus 06:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. You're selectively chosing to ignore the part where it's said that CricketEurope isn't a fan published website. It is run by cricket historians who contribute to Wisden. StickyWicket (talk) 10:16, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn’t ignore anything. It’s a fan site, it’s not published by Wisden and it has no editorial oversight. I contribute to scientific journals in my day job but if I set up my own website about vaccines it wouldn’t be a reliable source.—--Pontificalibus 10:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Things don't have to be published by Wisden to be reliable. CricketArchive isn't published by Wisden, none of the military history books about wartime cricketers I refer to are published by Wisden. StickyWicket (talk) 11:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The sentiment for keep was sufficiently strong that the close should been reflective of the difficulty in dealing with the subjective and advisory nature of our notability guidelines. Well-meaning people deserve better than this. Even as a !vote on the article it was poorly expressed. Thincat (talk) 09:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to NC. Appears to meet the SNG. There is one detailed source that no one argues is unreliable (self-published, but apparently by an expert in the area who is well regarded). Given the numbers and the strength of argument, I don't see consensus for keeping or deleting. Hobit (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The very reason why this article was brought to AfD is because meeting the cricket SNG isn't sufficient for an article, given how many players meet the SNG but fail GNG. In order for this to be overturned, the closing argument would have to assume that meeting the SNG trumps having to meet GNG, which does nevertheless require multiple sources, not one single source which participants disagree about. SportingFlyer T·C 19:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't see the article, but as I understand it there are plenty of sources that mention him in this context. One good source, lots of directory-like sources (which I assume include things about how each player did) is perhaps enough to get us there. My general sense is that when the SNG is not met, we expect above the GNG bar, and when the SNG is met, we are more flexible. Otherwise the SNG provides no value... Hobit (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I think your general sense is generally correct and that we are more lenient when the SNG is met, but if the SNG is met and GNG is clearly not met, as is the case here, a delete outcome reasonably follows. Furthermore, he barely passes the SNG, which greatly reduces any flexibility we might otherwise have (if he had 100 appearances for Ireland but no one could find any sources, the outcome might reasonably be different unless someone put in good research showing newspapers did not cover him at all.) SportingFlyer T·C 16:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The SNGs try to be a bright line--if the topic is over, it's over. And it's not the the GNG clearly isn't met. We've got one good source that we've identified. We've not found much else. I'd bet local papers at the time covered him to some extent. I've no objection to a merge/redirect for now if it is reasonable to mention him in the target proposed. But this is DRV and the question is if it was closed correctly. I don't think delete is the right outcome given that discussion... Hobit (talk) 17:18, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The "delete" opinions argued that there was no substantial coverage of the person, which is required per WP:GNG. Nobody contradicted that. The SNGs create only a rebuttable presumption of notability, and that presumption was rebutted here. The closer was therefore right to give the "delete" opinions determining weight. Sandstein 07:07, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to no consensus. The numbers were relatively well balanced and neither side correctly raised a policy-based argument that was not rebutted. Despite repeated assertions to the contrary by certain parties, an article needs only to pass an SNG or the GNG, not both. If it were otherwise, there would be no point in SNGs existing. Stifle (talk) 08:55, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (from AfD closer): WP:SNG: "The subject-specific notability guidelines generally include verifiable criteria about a topic which show that appropriate sourcing likely exists for that topic. Therefore, topics which pass an SNG are presumed to merit an article, though articles which pass an SNG or the GNG may still be deleted or merged into another article, especially if adequate sourcing or significant coverage cannot be found, or if the topic is not suitable for an encyclopedia." --Randykitty (talk) 11:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse WP:NOTAVOTE seems to apply, and in this case the keep !votes were markedly weak: 2 were essentially "he passes an SNG"; 1 was a "per above". That only leaves relatively weak (one of them self-identified as such) arguments about marginal coverage. There was no consensus to redirect (mentioned by only a few users), even if that would be a possibly valid alternative; and since the strength of the arguments was solidly on the delete side, there was no reason to keep the article (which is what a no consensus close effectively does). Of course this does not prevent the title being recreated as a redirect; but I doubt keeping the previous history of the article is really necessary, especially for a player who is long inactive and unlikely to get further coverage... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:42, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to no consensus Close reads more like a !vote than a proper close, and as others have explained, is false in any event as there were sources. Whether the sources were significant is a matter for consensus to determine, and there was no strong consensus one way or the other. Smartyllama (talk) 12:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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