- Amy Eden (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Discussed with closing admin here. Only 1 person !voted redirect. The consensus seems to be delete. LibStar (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as a viable ATD. No reason made not to. Star Mississippi 02:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse per the above, but more importantly: Delete !voters had plenty of time to argue against a redirection; no one did. Redirection to a relevant, notable parent topic is almost always a great ATD for a distinct topic that fails inclusion solely on notability grounds. Jclemens (talk) 03:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- You're assuming that delete !voters aren't against redirect, I take a delete !vote as one for delete not one for redirect. LibStar (talk) 03:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- What is the policy basis for a deletion without redirection? Since I know that there isn't one, it would be rude of me to ABF that voters intended a non-policy-based outcome when they didn't explicitly argue for such. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak endorse Weak only because the consensus was clearly delete, I probably would have closed it as a delete, and I want to call attention to that. However a viable ATD is always welcome and I have no problem with that outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I have a confession to make: Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that maybe some day, we can find a use for content that has been written with good intentions. And, even if the article is crap, I think redirects are useful for readers looking for subjects through search. Also, in the over three years I've been putting in time closing AFDs, I've found very few editors who object to redirects. But there are some who seemingly want a subject and its page title obliterated from the project. I don't agree but editors have different preferences. LibStar seems to be the latter. There was one editor who suggested a redirect, though it was not a bolded comment, and I took that suggestion. If no editor had mentioned a redirect, I never would have closed this discussion as a redirect because that would be me, the closer, introducing a option that had not been suggested by the participants. But it was suggested by an editor. When LibStar came to my talk page upset with the closure, I offered what I thought was a compromise, I would delete the article and then create a redirect from that article page title to the target article. But that was not an acceptable option either. So, here we are. Thanks for hearing me out. Liz Read! Talk! 06:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not upset at all. In fact, if this deletion review ends up endorsing the closure, I will accept that. Wikipedia is not the end all be all of life. LibStar (talk) 06:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems to me that the offer to delete and redirect would have saved a lot of time and angst. That is a delete closure. Anyone can create a new redirect after a delete closure, and an objection to that redirect would need to be taken to RfD. But why? The page history would not be visible and this person was a mayor so it is a reasonable search term. Perhaps the nom. can withdraw this and return to that offer. Or perhaps that ship has sailed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- On what basis would a deletion of an article with valid a redirect target, whose only issue is lack of notability, be a policy-preferred outcome? What is the benefit to the encyclopedia or its readers if only admins can see the deleted content? Jclemens (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- You might want to see Bungle's reply below. I'd have voted redirect if I had seen this, but I didn't. But after the keep !voter suggested a redirect as an ATD, the AfD gained 4 additional deletes, so we can't say the redirect suggestion was not considered. The consensus was clearly delete here. And DRV, as we are often told, is not about relitigating the AfD but assessing whether the close correctly assessed the consensus. However participants in an AfD may not always fully appreciate the options, and sometimes Liz gives very helpful guidance in a relist comment. She might have written something like "would delete voters consider the above redirect suggestion" or similar in her relist comment. Liz is unusual amongst relisting closers in doing this, and I find it to be a very good and helpful practice. That she didn't do it here is certainly not blameworthy, as this is very much an additional aid/service that she sometimes employs on a grace and favour basis. But had that been in the relist comment, we might have seen some re-evaluation. Or not! It can be hard to get !voters to look again. But at least additional !voters would have had that steer that the option is available. I also note the relist was not then left for a full week, and the only additional !vote was another delete. So... if the closer's job is to assess consensus, then it is hard to assess this one as anything other than delete. Liz offered to amend her close to delete, followed by creation of a redirect - which any editor, including Liz, is perfectly entitled to do. It was a fair offer, and in the big plan of things, having this text in visible rather than hidden page history is neither here nor there. So redirect is a perfectly good outcome in my opinion, and much time and angst could have been saved by working with Liz on this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak endorse for broadly the same reasons as SportingFlyer. A redirect is a de-facto delete, except that it can be easily reverted, although by the same token a deleted page can be recreated. That said, even if this seems an appropriate ATD, it feels like a supervote as there was, for me, quite an overwhelming majority advocating a straight "delete" that this should have been the default outcome. A redirect, or anything else, could have been done separate to the AfD. Seeing as this page could have been uncontroversially redirected after a deletion, then the close is not in itself inappropriate, but in this instance i'd have usually expected the outcome as "delete". Bungle (talk • contribs) 08:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- And how would having the history of this article inaccessible to non-admins improve the encyclopedia vs. it being preserved under the redirect? Jclemens (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Jclemens: my point was around the determining of consensus, not so much the aesthetics of a clean redirect. This discussion is just to determine if the reached outcome is correct and appropriate, and my view is, while strictly maybe not correct per consensus, is none the less probably appropriate. Just be mindful not to overly hound participants though, please, particularly as so far everyone has endorsed the decision in some form. Bungle (talk • contribs) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fair advice; my intent in questioning isn't to hound, so much as highlight the "Why?" behind the policies. I've been pursuing a curationist approach to the inclusionist/deletionist wars for quite some time, and if I accomplish nothing else in my Wikipedia career, deemphasizing binary delete/keep, win/lose thinking would be a satisfactory accomplishment. Having said that, I would dispute that identifying an ATD is against consensus in this or similar cases, in that it honors the finding that the individual is insufficiently notable for her own article, removes the content from mainspace, and allows all the nonproblematic (no promo, BLP, etc. issues) to remain in article history. It's especially important for admins to have the freedom to implement relatively obvious ATDs like this despite the nose counting, because that avoids pointless posturing like "keep or redirect" !votes, when everyone can see that at the time of such a !vote there aren't sufficient sources identified. Honesty and candor should result in optimum outcomes in a well-run consensus determination process, and I think Liz does it very well. Jclemens (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. This is the outcome suggested under policy. It was decided against a standalone article for the reason that the topic isn't notable. That does not by itself indicate that it is important to make the page history inaccessible. If the consensus to delete had formed around other reasons, such as BLP problems, it would not have been appropriate to redirect and leave the history accessible. But there is no such problem here.—Alalch E. 10:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Why should anyone bother commenting at afd if we're just going to endorse its treatment as a closer's suggestion box? —Cryptic 10:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I have a great deal of respect for Liz, whom I regard as one of our best administrators. However, I find it alarming to see an administrator saying "Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that ..." A closing administrator absolutely should not allow their personal opinions or "hopes" to influence how they close a discussion, at all. Unlike Liz, I don't regularly close deletion discussions, but on the infrequent occasions when I do so, I quite often close them in ways which are strongly opposed to my own preferences. I do not wish to comment on the closure of the particular discussion being considered here, but I feel very strongly about the principle in general. JBW (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse and rescind offer to redirect over delete. The AfD determined that the subject did not meet our threshold of notability. It did not determine that the content violated policy. The appellant has no basis to demand deletion under the redirect, and has no locus standi to even request the removal of a redirect without an RfD. The entire appeal comes across as based on spite, rather than on a genuine interest in improving the project. I assumed good faith until I saw the appellant's refusal to accept the closing admin's compromise. This appellant will not be satisfied with any outcome different from their nomination, regardless of policy or benefit to WP. Owen× ☎ 12:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. A vote to delete as not notable and a vote to redirect are one in the same, the only difference being that the latter specifies a redirect target. None of the delete votes stated any opposition to redirect, and the AFD nominator also opined that redirect was a viable option after the redirect vote came in. Redirect is a reasonable close, and in this case the correct close (had delete been the outcome and someone challenged that at DRV, I would have voted to overturn to redirect with history restored). Frank Anchor 14:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse, per User:Alalch E.. Fundamentally, Liz was following the policy spelled out at WP:ATD, but perhaps more importantly was following a long-standing consensus that if an ATD has been suggested and not objected to then it is preferable to use that ATD rather than to delete history. (Among other minor benefits, it saves a future administrator the effort of doing a WP:REFUND.) Suriname0 (talk) 20:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. When in doubt, don't delete. A consensus that a topic is not notable does not make redirection or history preservation inappropriate. losers should always consider ATD's that have been suggested in a discussion and implement them if they are appropriate. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - The consensus was Delete, and redirects are cheap, and the redirect is a valid one, so deleting the redirect would be silly. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Do not endorse, I see a consensus to delete that the redirect close overruled. WP:Consensus is the controlling policy.
- Regarding WP:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion (policy, shortcut WP:ATD), I wrote a policy and consensus analysis that Alternatives to deletion are not preferred over deletion in July 2022. There have been subsequent discussions, but no material policy changes.
- I reviewed the last 12 months of DRVs containing "ATD" and deciding between delete and redirect. Please see the table on the talk page. Including this one, there are six total: three each of delete and redirect. The redirect AfDs were all closed by Liz, while the deletes had different closers. Assuming that this is endorsed, the four endorses will be evenly split.
- If the article had been deleted, any autoconfirmed user could create a redirect. The history is only potentially useful for article content if and when Eden becomes notable – undeleting may never be necessary – and it would be outdated and overly focused on her campaign.
- Flatscan (talk) 04:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, yes... you don't see it the way the endorsers do. Without rehashing why I think you're wrong on that point, I don't recall yet seeing a good articulation of why doing things your way would benefit either or editors or our readers. Making it easier to just count noses and call that consensus makes things easier for closers, no question about it. But the readers? Jclemens (talk) 05:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The AfD reached the consensus that the history had no value as article content. I searched WP: space for benefit reader, finding WP:Purpose (information page), WP:Wikipedia is for readers (essay), and WP:About (not tagged). None of them mention page history. Did you have a policy, guideline, or other page in mind? Flatscan (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Deletion is not the default, but only an option when no other alternative applies. WP:DGFA makes this clear. If page history were not valuable, ATDs of redirect or merge would not exist. Jclemens (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- If you mean #11 in WP:Deletion guidelines for administrators#On deleting pages (permanent link in case the numbering is changed), it describes copying content to another article: merging, not just redirecting. Per WP:Copying within Wikipedia (guideline), the source page's history is generally required to provide attribution. Flatscan (talk) 04:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I was actually referencing the bolded point #4 of "Deciding whether to delete". I hadn't meant to be obscure there, but the fact that you were thinking I was referencing any other portion of that page is a surprise to me. That is, one should always read the big, bolded bits at the top of the page: the rest of it is about how to implement those overarching principles and must necessarily be read in light of them. Jclemens (talk) 06:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- A redirect is a delete with history restored, and I see no reason that would preclude such a restoration at the discretion of any single admin (RFU). It may have been "more optimal" for the suggestion to redirect to be left as a !vote instead of immediately implemented, but that is outside the purview of DRV. We're not here to pick apart every single detail of how a close is implemented, only to determine whether it is within the discretion afforded our closers, and with broader discretion typical for substantially very similar closes, I don't see any case for an overturn except that there were an explicit, rather than implicit consensus that article history be deleted. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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