Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-12-25/Tampere-Pirkkala Airport

Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
Article	Tampere-Pirkkala Airport
Status	Closed
Request date	03:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Requesting party	Olyus (talk)
Mediator(s)	bobrayner (talk)

Request details

Where is the dispute?

The dispute concerns section listing destinations, specifically Riga.

Who is involved?

User:Jamie2k9
User:olyus
User:NorthernCounties seems to have been involved on the talkpage too - I'll notify them too. bobrayner (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the dispute?

Whether Riga can be listed as a seasonal destination without any reference to support this. Jamie2k9 has stated his position as such: "Did the route operate for summmer 2010?? Yes. Did the route operate this winter?? No. IS the route operating next summmer?? Yes. How hard is it to realise that it is a seasonal route? " My view (as Olyus) is that the above might be true, but in wikipedia it is nessecary to show references. In this case, Ryanair (the route's operator) do not list this as a seasonal route. I agree with Jamie2k9 that it probably operates on that basis, but with the absence of a ref, we would only be speculating, and thus engaged in unsourced orginal research. I have repeatedly asked the said editor to either provide a reference or cease writing the words "seasonal" and he refuses to do so, only stating that too him Ryanair's route stratergy is obvious and thus no reference is needed.

What would you like to change about this?

The removal of the words "seasonal" without a reference.

How do you think we can help?

I would like an outside group to clarify for all parties concerned as to whether references and original research is permisable and then request the removal or such material.

Mediator notes

Closure

OK; I think we can consider this closed, unless anybody else has any further comments on the article...? Thanks, everyone, for contributing and for being civil. bobrayner (talk) 03:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative notes

Discussion

Thank you for informing me of this discussion Bob. I find myself agreeing with Jamie on this topic. Ryanair is a funny company, never really stating its true intentions etc. But as the route operated last year, stop and recommenced this year, this is reminiscent of a Seasonal route. One major issue however, is that Olyus reverts Jamie2k9s edits, and totally removes Riga of the Tampere Airport page when the route is bookable on the Ryanair website. I believe at the very least, Riga ought to be on the routes operated, as it is. But I further believe it should be noted as Seasonal. This mention is not detrimental to the page, just factual and common knowledge. --NorthernCounties (talk) 19:11, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think the simplest solution here would be just to state "Riga (restarts 27 March 2011)" based on this source. Although Ryanair describe it there as a "new route" they've actually been flying to Riga since 2004. Valenciano (talk) 19:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That looks like an interesting suggestion. What does everyone think?

Looking through the article history, I see a lot of edits which add/remove Riga completely (not just the "seasonal" qualifier). I understand that the exact status of flights to Riga is disputed, but if there is some evidence of current/future flights to Riga, perhaps it would be a good idea to put Riga in, along with some other qualifier or caveat? A start date could be good, or just "Ryanair announced that...", or something in that vein. Olyus, would something like that be acceptable to you as long as it's verifiable? bobrayner (talk) 02:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am very happy for it to be listed as long as there are sources that confirm it's seasonal nature. As I have stated previously, this is not a debate about facts, rather about good editing, which in my view means justifing a position rather than saying "It's obvious!". So yes, by all means include Riga, but don't mark it as "seasonal" unless there is evidence to that effect. Similary, finding evidence that it has flown in previous years doesn't prove that it is a seasonal route. it could just mean that Ryanair have had problems with airplane allocation, landing fees, economic down turn etc... Sources that should it is being operated on that basis are what're needed, otherwise, just list it like any other route. Olyus (talk) 17:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Those are good points. So, would any/all of these be acceptable to you?

A naked, unqualified "Riga";
"Riga (restarts 27 March 2011)"[1] as Valenciano suggested (we might also add a source which shows the route was used previously, if necessary to address concerns about "restarts");
Riga with some other qualifier, as long as it's explicitly sourced (any suggestions?)

bobrayner (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On the Riga Airport page there has being no problem with the route being seasonal. It is the same for Malaga and Milan which are seasonal but just because Ryanair have them in the new route section (like most seasonal routes this year which every other airport pages havn't being changes to reflect this as they are seasonal and not new routes) They are shown as seasonal on the Malaga and Milan pages but Olyus (talk) thinks they are new.

restarts 27 March - you don't list the restart dates for seasonal routes but if it makes Olyus (talk) happy then why not until we have the same problem next year. Jamie2k9 (talk) 21:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that if we try to raise the spectre of future disagreements (either on this article or elsewhere) it could be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Please, let's try to solve this disagreement, then we can all be happy and sing and do a happy dance¹. And maybe then disagreement will be less likely in future. bobrayner (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

¹As a mediator I do not have the authority to compel you all to dance. But happiness will be enforced.

Thanks for pointing out the Riga, Malaga and Milan (airport) pages need fixing. I will hold off until this is resolved and apply the same logic. I am happy with "restarts" as there are apparently some soruces that show it previously operated. That, combined with the Ryanair source which confirms the route does exist and what date it will start means we have sourced all our info. That makes me happy and feel like dancing! To correct the assertion written above, I do not think these routes are new. That has been the point from the begining. I think the articles need sources. As to Jamie's contribution, I think it is wise to think about next year already. Next year, unless we have some source that the route is seasonal, we should simply say restart again, with sources showing it ran previously and sources showing it exists and what date it starts, much like this year.Olyus (talk) 18:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"some source that the route is seasonal"

If we put the restart date for Riga thats fine but if it dosn't operate next winter. ie -Oct 29 - Mar 28 then the route will be seasonal and will not require a restart date there after. I don't know how this is so hard for you to understand. If the route only operates for a few months of a year then it is seasonal. When Riga first started Ryanair had it year round but due to low loads during the winter the route was suspended the following winter and has being seasonal ever since. I going to say this again but there is no point. Ryanair have decided that the route will remain seasonal Jamie2k9 (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" When Riga first started Ryanair had it year round but due to low loads during the winter the route was suspended the following winter and has being seasonal ever since. " Can you provide a reference for that statement?Olyus (talk) 17:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, could we compromise on this wording? "Riga (restarts 27/03/2010)". If that is verifiable and relatively neutral, it might be a good idea to put that in the article. If you want to discuss further, then do so by all means (and thanks for remaining civil so far) but in the meantime we're able to take out wording that somebody objects to, and replace it with something that seems to have broader backing. bobrayner (talk) 13:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with that, a source for the restart date (2nd March 2011) is here (http://www.ryanair.com/fi/cheap-tampere-finland-riga-latvia-flights). If someone could chuck in a source (listed below I believe) to show it operated previously, I think that takes care of it. Thanks to everyone who's taken part. Olyus (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think that the other people who commented here would be happy with that - any objections?

Thanks, all, for remaining civil and for working out a compromise.

bobrayner (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think someone could go ahead and make those changes, and the perhaps unlock the page. I have already spotted that the link to the airport's official page (which should be at bottom of the info table on the top right of the article anyway) is incorrect as the airport seems to have let its domain lapse. Olyus (talk) 20:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Does anyone have specific sources which mention the flights (or lack of them)? If so, that could be very helpful.

I had a quick look at the booking page and it appeared to show flights, but Ryanair's webdesign is not the clearest; I might have been about to book an indirect flight, Tampere-Faro-Riga, or something like that. :-)
[2] mentions Riga but gives no details or dates. Similarly there's a line on the routemap on [3].
I also found an older third-party source which mentions a previous introduction of Riga-Tampere flights. You probably don't want to meticulously document such history but it might be useful background information.

Any more sources? bobrayner (talk) 02:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the dispute here is actually over the route operates at all since no one seriously disputes that - it's been operating for over five years and is at present bookable on the ryanair site. However there are a few Latvian language sources in the main Latvian daily Diena. This mentions a flight from Riga to Tampere undertaken in June, here (in the last line) they list the Ryanair route, while this article is about the introduction of the route. I personally don't see the problem here with listing it as seasonal but stating Tampere (restarts 27 March) covers it as well I guess. Valenciano (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]