Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/Off2riorob

Off2riorob

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Incomplete user talk-page archives

I have some rather serious concerns about this candidate, including the prospects for an effective evaluation by editors not already familiar with him. The block log is revealing to a point, but the editor's talk page (including archives) is incomplete, as a result of his practice of "shifting shit" from it: if he is displeased by something having been raised on his own talk page, he sometimes deletes the discussion and moves it to the talk page of the other editor (for his description of this practice, see here, at the bottom). The archives of the user-talk page, then, are incomplete, having been cleansed of some unpleasantness, including not only other editors' concerns but the candidate's own incivility in response. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

My archives are 99 percent complete, and I can only suggest that you refrain from such unfounded accusations as you accused me of. Your throwing around of insults and accusations of antisemitism was the problem. Off2riorob (talk) 20:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I had a hard time making sense of this response until now, because it appears to emerge from a misimpression: you seem to be thinking of a thread you started on my talk page (not vice-versa), leading to something about spitting and a threat on the associated ANI thread to "beat the living daylights out of [me]" (later stricken). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity, would you please provide a diff of what you deem the candidate's most egregious transgression in that regard? Not a whole bunch of diffs that no one will bother to look at, but rather the single most egregious one? Surely the link you provided can't be it. After all, if you were accused of supporting the use of forgeries in Wikipedia articles, wouldn't you remove that from your talk page? Also, please identify the specific policy or guideline that you think the candidate violated. Thanks, I know that will take you a little time, but it will help others to evaluate your comment. Incidentally, per WP:Talk, "Users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages, though archiving is preferred. They may also remove some content in archiving.". As for the candidate's block log, I must say (tongue in cheek) that I'm impressed to see one longer than mine; doesn't it mean the candidate now has a good idea of how Wikipedia administration operates? Seriously, do you agree with everything in the block log, and which block log entry do you find most important for our purposes now?Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

If one is embarrassed by having certain issues raised on one's talk page, surely the solution is to avoid doing embarrassing things -- so no, I don't see the logic in your comment about supporting the use of forgeries. As for a long block log: I would have thought that knowing how Wikipedia administration operates is a means of avoiding frequent blocks, not acquiring them. I realize you have asked me a number of other questions -- but let's remember that I'm not a candidate here (and don't intend to be one). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I see no indication of embarassment.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Off2riorob's block log is concerning. It shows a tendency to volatility which is incompatible with being a member of ArbCom. His present block log would preclude him even being chosen as an administrator. Mathsci (talk) 03:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

So you think a long block log is damning in and of itself? Or do you have a particular entry or entries in the block log in mind?Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Off2riorob lost his temper at one point and edit warred over something related to climate change. I've only noticed it because I was watching WP:AE at the time for another report. Although he got blocked for that, it wasn't an AE block per se. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#Off2riorob. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocklog is certainly concerning, but even more important to someone seeking to artibtrate a dispute is to be level-headed. On this very page discussion the nomination thereof "refrain from such unfounded accusations as you accused me of." This is not a very good start and doesnt show much change since the last block in June (discounting the previous 2 that were withdrawn). Instead of such a statement, he can always defend himself instead of attacking the other editor. Perhaps next year..Lihaas (talk) 02:36, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Passive aggression to tiptoe around WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, also severe concerns with temperament. I certainly hope the secret ballot voters will read this section before casting their vote. I will obviously be Opposing this candidate. Agent Vodello^{OK, Let's Party, Darling!} 19:14, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The blocklog is certainly disturbing with blocks ranging from 15 March 2009 to 24 October 2010, and the only admin who has blocked more than once is YellowMonkey who blocked them twice in 2009. Making a grand total of 10 blocks combined with 4 unblocks (1 in October) and one block reduction. Certainly an interesting block log... Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 23:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Some of those blocks are just plain bad and clearly not the candidate's fault. Looking at the log, it seems that at least one of those blocks was completely egregious and ... made by another candidate in this election. I'm referring to this block by HJ Mitchell made on August 31 of this year, with the justification that there was a supposed legal threat involved. As can be clearly seen there was no such legal threat ever made [1], the block was soon reversed (by User Avraham - why isn't he running?) and HJ Mitchell was criticized (not to say "reprimanded") for making the block. I'm left wondering if the blocks aren't just due to some other people's misunderstanding of policy rather than this candidate's fault. Unfortunately, a bad, even a very bad, block still leaves its mark on the user's record and I'm getting the sense that that is what's going on here. People need to actually click through and look at the diffs rather than jumping in with an opinion. Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocks can be wrong, but they are seldom completely without foundation. And when there is a whole series if them, and made by different admins, then it is a pattern. Sorry, I won't be clicking on individual blocks to find out. Besides, he is not an admin. OTOH I do not see removal of content from user talk page as a porblem at all. That's completely normal. - BorisG (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur with all the above concerns, the conduct/approach really isn't appropriate for this type of role. Perhaps one or two blocks are incorrect, but that leaves many perfectly justified ones. I personally have had experience of the candidate's issues with civility and most of my discussions with him have also been removed from his talk page. Technically such deletions are not a breach of the rules but I want Wikipedia to be run by people who are open and transparent. If people post false comments on one's talk page then then it's better to refute them, similarly when one makes a mistake there's no need to delete any discussions about it. Based on my experience I'd question Off2RioRob's "99 percent complete" figure for the completeness of his talk page. On the positive side the candidate did apologise to me so that is to be commended, but it would be better if most of these incidents did not occur in the first place.--Shakehandsman (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the general sentiment expressed above. Would also note, while some blocks may raise eyebrows, so as well may some reports at AN/I that did not result in blocks, but which another "closer" might IMHO very well have closed differently. Editors who are interested are of course encouraged to look at the relevant AN/I posts, and decide for themselves if that is the case, but in any event that is but a footnote to the general sentiment expressed above.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with the concerns. I have had several unpleasant encounters with this editor. My long-term impression is that he is highly unsuited for the sensitive post of ArbCom member. Attempts to gloss over his block log are unconvincing. Further, I am unable to easily access any of his talk page archives prior to late August of this year without manually changing the URL's archive number in the window. If they are otherwise available I am unable to find the way in after ten minutes of looking, though it may be a function of the archive bot being used. In any case, I urge any casual voter unaquainted with this editor's lengthy record to look as deeply as is possible. As one example, Off2riorob's participation in this thread [2] is of interest; note the implied threat directed at me, should I ever run for adminship here. Jusdafax 21:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Shallow

I've read a few ANI issues where Off2riorob added his two cents. Unless he was personally involved, his contribution looked either extremely shallow or otherwise they were biased towards one party. We need unbiased arbs willing to dig deep into the issues present, not off-the-cuff judgments. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Intemperate in dispute resolution

My interactions with Off2riorob were short-lived--maybe he was just having a bad day. But they occurred in an arbitration, so I'm concerned enough to speak up here.

In spring 2010 I lent my assistance to a WP:NORN which figured in what I later learned was a meta-dispute in numerous race/intelligence related articles. Shortly after I became acquainted with it, the meta-dispute spread itself to the WP:BLPN board, where off2riorob left opinions. (I assume that he was drawn in to the meta-dispute in a similar manner that I was.) We didn't come to the same conclusions. Which is ok-and business as usual, at wikipedia. No big deal. But this meta-dispute landed in arbitration, and that should be where the rubber meets the road-in other words, evidence backed with diffs.

This edit was the 3rd move in a temper tantrum by off2riorob who flew off the handle when I disagreed with his conclusions offered in arbitration, that I think are unfounded, in defending a subsequently topic-banned party in the arbitration. While I was trying to focus on the complexities of the issue and sources themselves, my dissent triggered in him an impatient explosion about my "bombarding" with diffs.[3] To minimize drama, I didn't fly into high dudgeon in the arbitration page, but went to his talk page seeking an explanation. He self-righteously nuked it from his own talk page, and lectured me to discuss it on mine. (I don't care either way. My first instinct is the efficiency of "I talk to you on your page, you talk to me on mine.")

What suggests to me that he may too intemperate yet for the arbitration committee were his comments like this, "'No I have never spoken to you before, but talking to you today has allowed me to easily form these positions" and "Please leave me out of this POV single purpose users issue, I hate it , I would block you all, at least topic ban you all so that you either go away and stop disrupting wikipedia or that you get the wikipedia idea and start improving the wikipedia instead of simply attempting to assert your POV on the wikipedia, try this...help on some football articles or something independent of your single POV. I strongly support all my comments at that Arbitration requests race and intellegence noticeboard and will defend them anywhere, please forget about me and carry on regardless.' Off2riorob (talk) 20:34, 18 August 2010" I'm not a single purpose user, I didn't draw him into the debate. This may have been a bad day, like I said. But on that day he failed in those attributes I think important in dispute resolution. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Concerns over judgement

Perhaps Off2riorob has matured a little, I don't know, but I think it's worth mentioning a somewhat odd view on Wikipedia's civility policy, a view which preceded this. There's nothing personal here, but I was surprised to see his name in the list of candidates. He seems well-intentioned, but lacking in judgement, and I'm not sure I want someone with such a poor understanding of the difference between strong language and civility able to contribute to important decisions. Parrot of Doom 22:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with both much of the criticism (that he is has a battle field (indeed Trench warfare) mentality) and that he sometimes brings a fresh (and not always incorrect) vision to many articles. He also has a tendency to (for example) close ANI’s prematurely and unilaterally. He does not seem to be able to distance himself from his sense of righteousness (or perhaps his own self belief in his sense of righteousness). Thus whilst I believe the user is not wholly disruptive and will be an (overall) asset in the long run I do not believe he has the ability to sufficiently distance himself from matters to truly be an asset to arbom.Slatersteven (talk) 14:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

An uninvolved outside opinion

I notice a few people have commented who have had personal interactions with Off2riorob. I've never had any personal interaction with him as far as I can remember, and so I'm coming from a completely neutral position. The examples noted above are certainly not one-sided - I think Off2riorob did have some justification for his part in a number of them, and various antagonists were not entirely innocent. However, having said that, I have seen Off2riorob in discussion around the place a lot, and although he is a fantastic contributor and has done a lot of excellent work at BLP, and his judgment on BLP issues, of which he has great experience, is often spot on, I don't believe he has the right temperament for ArbCom - and I was actually very surprised to see him as a candidate. I think he gets into too many unnecessary arguments, and he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions - and that would really not be a good approach for ArbCom. The block log concerns me too, even if one or two were unjustifed. I note that they were all short and Off2riorob cooled down pretty quickly in each case, which is commendable. But that observation, and other interactions I've seen, suggest too much of a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. Sorry I can't offer difs, but I'm really just expressing a general feeling from having seen a lot of interactions, and picking out a few specific incidents would not really illustrate that. So, in short, I see a very competent and committed editor, with a great deal of knowledge, especially in the BLP arena, but I don't see the personal interaction skills that would be needed for admin or ArbCom. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional, underscored above -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Inflexibility and intemperance

Having interacted with him, and having watched other editors try to work with him as well, I would second the above comment: he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions. I have linked to an example on his candidate's question page. IMO his approach is not at all a good match for ARBCOM. The dispute in question is one in which every editor but one (i.e. Off2riorob) is in agreement that some material should be included, but Off2riorob is simply vetoing it unilaterally, refusing to recognize consensus, refusing to participate in any consensus-building exercise, and attacking everyone who disagrees. It eventually became irreconcilable with the presumption of good faith. One can argue one way or another about this block or that block on his rather strikingly extended list of same, but behind it all is a pattern of absolute inflexibility that is IMO the exact opposite of what ARBCOM is supposed to be. Spaceclerk (talk) 21:24, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Now, possibly in retribution for these comments, he's accusing me of being the sock of a banned user. Which, as I shouldn't even have to say, I am not. Somebody toss me a prop skull for me to call Yorick, because apparently someone wants a drama. Spaceclerk (talk) 00:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The CheckUser for the accusation came back "unlikely" - not at all a surprise, given that I am not a sock. It will be an interesting measure of Off2riorob's character to see whether he apologizes for the false accusation. It could happen, you know. 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaceclerk (talk • contribs)

• - I am sorry if you are upset about the sock report, it was made in good faith according to the investigations I had made. - and my report was mistaken. Lets try to go forward on a fresh spirit of good will. Off2riorob (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Judicial temperament

Reading the remarks above I must point out a big difference between being IN a dispute, and being OUTSIDE and ABOVE a dispute. I do not know how he handles himself when party to a dispute. Maybe with a personal stake he loses his temper. But when he has no personal stake, I have seen Off2riorob bring restraint, and a dignified and fair perspective to other people's quarrel. My experience of Off2riorob came in the course of my talk page conversation with a (from my jaundiced perspective) frothing-at-the-mouth ideologue. Off2riorob without taking sides gently and tactfully steered us toward a workable solution. Also he's a Brit, and I think it good to have a non-American perspective. I support Off2riorob's candidacy. ElijahBosley ^{(talk ☞)} 14:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

As a Brit I do not support his candidacy. Nor do several other Brits. If you wish for a Brit on arbcom there is always Elen of the roads. Polargeo (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Arbcom decisions are not taken in 5 minutes, but over days and weeks; there is plenty of time to reflect. Off2riorob has proved time and again in his BLP work that he is astute, perceptive, and cuts to the point. See e.g. [4] --JN466 15:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• - Well thank you Jayen. I have been a bit silent on this talkpage as it seems more like it was just a place where some of the users I have had disputes with were coming to vocalise their dislike, but I will make a comment after seeing Polargo's comment. Polargo was involved in the Climate change debacle and it didn't go well for him. I was involved in raising up the communities awareness that there was a serious issue in that topic area. There was ultimately to end the massive disruption to the project an Arbcom case and as a result the disruption in the area is reduced completely. I collected through my efforts to help reduce the community wide disruption regarding this put at least a couple of users in a negative position in regards to me. As I hear, being a member of the committee is a thankless task, without any power as such and members appear to regularly find themselves upsetting one faction or the other, as they say, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I can say to you that if I users trust me enough to support, I will be meticulous in assessing all cases in depth and I will show neutrality to all sides. Off2riorob (talk) 16:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)