Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 81

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Archive 75

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Archive 81

Archive 82

RfC concerning WP:ABOUTSELF

There's an RfC about the applicability of WP:ABOUTSELF to an article on a religious organisation happening at Talk:International Churches of Christ#Request for Comment on About Self sourcing on beliefs section of a religious organization’s article, which might interest watchers of this page. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback requested on whether usage examples require sources

Your feedback would be welcome at this discussion about usage examples at linguistic articles, and whether they require sources: Talk:Franglais#Are usage examples "original research"? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 17:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Responsibility section

Right now, this guide reads Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. But the footnote in that quote reflects very different principles: The location of any citation—including whether one is present in the article at all—is unrelated to whether a source directly supports the material.; ie, this footnote belongs on a sentence that says something like "Any material that is not directly supported by a reliable source may be removed." The change to the base text that set this footnote out of wack is old enough that it doesn't show up in the last 50 edits, but I'm not sure if wider consensus was sought for it beforehand. If there was, it's evidently the footnote that needs updating. -- asilvering (talk) 15:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The change was made by WhatamIdoing in June 2021,[1] in a change to standardise the language between BURDEN and CHALLENGE. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The footnote is trying to provide a definition of what it means if a source Wikipedia:Directly supports the material.

We have had editors mistakenly think that the location of the little blue clicky number is what determines whether the source directly supports the material. In this error, they mistakenly believe that:

Born in 1927,^[1] Alice Expert became famous for her interest in expertise.

has a citation that "directly supports" the birth year, even if the cited source is all about elephants and does not mention either Alice or 1927 at all.

What we're trying to tell them is that "directly supports" means that if the CHALLENGED fact is about Alice's birth year, then citing a source about elephants is no good, even if the little blue clicky number is actually touching the year. The cited source only "directly supports" the claim if the cited source contains words like "Alice was born in 1927" – and if it does that, then that cited source "directly supports" the claim even if it's at the end of the paragraph (or, technically, if it's not yet cited in the article – though a CHALLENGE requires that it actually be cited). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but that's not what the footnote is saying. If that's what we want the footnote to say, it should say that. -- asilvering (talk) 02:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering,

The footnote says "The location of any citation—including whether one is present in the article at all—is unrelated to whether a source directly supports the material."

I'm telling you that the meaning of the footnote is that the location of the citation is irrelevant to whether the source directly supports the material. What's relevant to the question of whether the citation WP:Directly supports the material in the Wikipedia article is whether the material in the source matches the material in the Wikipedia article.

It seems to me that my explanation is exactly "what the footnote is saying". What do you think the footnote is saying? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

What the footnote currently says is, including whether one is present in the article at all. It is telling you that a sentence may indeed be directly supported by a reliable source, even if that source is not cited in the article. That is, an article may have zero references at all, but it is in principle possible to find a source that contains the same information; this is a statement about what makes a fact verifiable or not. That is irrelevant to the sentence the footnote is attached to, since that sentence is saying material should not be restored without an inline citation; it is a statement about what to do once a fact has been challenged and needs to be verified.

Since you've clarified what this is supposed to mean, I can fix it by removing the "including whether one is present in the article at all" bit, so I'll do that. -- asilvering (talk) 02:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you've understood the sentence, but you don't believe it.

Fact: A source directly supports the content when the content of the source matches the contents of the article.

Where the citation is placed is irrelevant to whether the source directly supports the content.

Obviously logical conclusions, given a source that says the same thing as the article:

If the citation is placed at the end of the sentence, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed at the end of the paragraph, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed at the end of the section, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed at the end of the article, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed in the ==External links== section, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed in an edit summary, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation is placed on the talk page, then the source directly supports the material.
If the citation hasn't been typed into Wikipedia yet, then the source still directly supports the material.

Naturally, that last case isn't useful to any other editor, and it doesn't meet the requirements of WP:BURDEN (which requires the citation to be formatted as an inline citation, implicitly in the article itself and [for practical reasons, as a means of communicating the relationship between the source and the material to whichever editor complained about the absence of an inline citation] plausibly near that material), but directly supports itself, strictly speaking, is about whether the source matches the article content. It's not about where the citation is located, or even whether the citation has been typed up yet.

I think what you might want is to add a sentence that says something like "Of course, in case of a CHALLENGE, you really do have to have an inline citation to that source" – though I'd consider that to be redundant with the main text of the policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Why is this still being discussed after all these years?

"Naturally, that last case isn't useful to any other editor" applies to any placement of the citation that is removed from the content supported by the citation. The citation should be close to the content it supports. (How close can be discussed, but not further than the end of the sentence. You reveal you understand this point. The citations is not about the whole article, but about a specific piece of information in the article, and it should be located adjacent to that piece of information.) Your long repetitions border on a rather silly WP:POINT violation, so we won't take it too seriously. We understand your point, and it is (still) not valid. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason it's being discussed is because an editor appears to have misunderstood which words in the sentence provide him with an excuse to object about the location of the citation, and which words provide him with an excuse to object about the contents of the cited source.

The first sentence using this says:

"All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material."

The words "an inline citation" are the words that say the citation has to be close to the CHALLENGED material.
The words "directly supports the material" are the words that say the contents of the article must match what's in the source.

If your complaint is that the citation is 'physically' in the wrong place, including that it's not in the article at all, then say something like "That's not a proper inline citation, which is required by WP:V."

If your complaint is that the citation is 'physically' in the right place, but the Wikipedia article is talking about when Alice was born and the cited source is talking about elephants, then say something like "That source does not directly support the claim. According to WP:V, a source "directly supports" a given piece of material if the information is present explicitly in the source, so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of Wikipedia:No original research, and no amount of ~~rearranging deckchairs~~ changing the location of the ref tags is going to change the fact that the cited source doesn't directly support the material."

Getting editors to use the right words helps people understand each other. This isn't necessarily popular (for example, a couple of years ago, we had a high-volume editor claiming that all uncited material is automatically a NOR violation, even though the second paragraph of NOR contradicts that), but it is important, especially for editors who are trying to change policies. WP:Policy writing is hard, and it's almost impossible if you don't pay attention to the differences like which words indicate the location of the citation and which words, in the same sentence, tell you something about the nature of the cited source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

! agree with your statement. I have always understood that a cited source needed to directly support content in the article, but when I first started editing WP more than 18 years ago, I did not understand the importance of having the citation as close to the supported content as possible (nor, it would appear, did many other editors at the time). Having seen how often well-intentioned edits move citations away from the content they support, I now support citing individual sentences within paragraphs, when applicable. We have {{Failed verification}} for a source that does not support the content, but if a citation supporting some specific content is not close to that content, then, if an editor does not have the time and patience to search for the displaced citation, {{Citation needed}} may be added. These are distinct problems, and policies and guidelines need to make that distinction clear. Donald Albury 14:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing and Donald Albury, thanks for the clarifications. I agree. The location of the citation should be close enough to the relevant content that a reader will logically make a connection between the content and its citation. If the citation gets moved or is otherwise located too far away, then placement of {{Failed verification}} or {{Citation needed}} tags is appropriate. That's why I object to the practice of moving all citations to the end of a sentence or paragraph. Some citations need to be placed exactly right after a specific word or phrase and should not be moved, especially for sensitive BLP matters. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you've understood the sentence, but you don't believe it. is not true, and I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to speculate. -- asilvering (talk) 16:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, do you? Do you actually believe that the source I'm going to cite later today "directly supports" the contents that I'll be citing it for? Or do you believe that since there's no citation in the Wikipedia article yet, that it can't possibly "directly support" that material? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

If it isn't placed logically close to the content, it doesn't "directly" support the material. The cite's placement somewhere in the universe does mean it "supports" that material, but that is irrelevant for our purposes. We need it "directly", IOW located "closely", to support the material, hence the need for it to be located "inline". That's pretty close. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

No. That's not what's intended.

If it isn't placed logically close to the content, then the content is uncited. Uncited is not the same thing as "directly supports".

We need the source both logically close to the content ("inline" with that content) and for the source to directly support the content ("source and Wikipedia article say the same thing").

Maybe we need to use other words for this. @Valjean, can you imagine a source that indirectly supports content, so that (to reverse the requirement in the policy) "using this source to support the material ~~is not~~ would be a violation of Wikipedia:No original research"?

For example: Imagine a pair of tweets saying "I got married today" and "I'm in London today". It would be a violation of NOR to turn those into "Chris Celebrity got married in London today", right? It's a violation because no source directly says that the wedding was in London – they only indirectly imply it, right?

I know we agree that this problem can't be solved by moving the refs around. Even if you format it as "Chris^[1]^[2] Celebrity^[1]^[2] got married^[1]^[2] in London^[1]^[2] today^[1]^[2]", that pair of tweets is still a NOR violation, because they only indirectly support the claim. This would be a violation of the requirement for the source to WP:Directly support the content, even though those ref tags are literally touching every single significant word in the sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be a SYNTH violation to use them that way? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It absolutely would violate SYNTH.

And SYNTH, as every experienced editor knows, is part of NOR.

And this footnote says that if the only way your source (NB: not "location of ref tags") could be said to "support" your content is a NOR violation, then your source (NB: not "location of ref tags") does not "directly support" the content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

That wording really confuses me. There are too many different elements for me to be sure how to parse it. Is there a word missing somewhere in all that? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's a missing word.

What's difficult about saying that sources that don't say Chris got married in London don't support a claim that Chris got married in London? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing difficult about that at all. This is about SYNTH violations. Is that really your main point in this thread? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

That is the main point, not "in this thread", but "in the policy itself". A source does not "directly support" content if it's a NOR violation for that content. The definition of "directly supports" is given in that footnote. The definition is: When you compare the source to the article's contents, it wouldn't be a NOR violation to claim that the source and the article are saying the same thing.

I think the main point from other editors is "I want a sentence in an actual policy that will let me insist that the location of the citations be changed". Some editors have gotten into the habit of claiming (and genuinely believing) that "directly supports" is about the location of the citation, rather than the contents of the source. I've no objection to them having such a sentence. I only object to them using words about source–text integrity ("a reliable source that directly supports") when talking about formatting (e.g., the location of the ref tags). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

What I believe about the statement in question, ie the note, is irrelevant to the question I raised in my initial post, which is that the two statements we have (the sentence in the main text, and the sentences in the note) introduce an unnecessarily confusing discrepancy. I understand both statements perfectly fine. What I am saying is that it is unhelpful to add "including whether one is present in the article at all" in the note when we are talking about what to do when "material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material" has been challenged in the main text. Indeed, the location of the inline source is irrelevant when it comes to whether information is verifiable or not. However, once material is challenged, it is in fact very relevant that sources are present in the article.

I posted on this talk page about it because it appeared likely to me that this discrepancy was the result of someone changing the main text and forgetting to change the footnote. If that was the case, it was possible that the change was done without wider consensus. I received my answer; this was not the case. Great! So, I edited the footnote to suit its context. I'm not sure why you reverted that, since my changes did not change the meaning of any of the text. -- asilvering (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The whole note:

A source "directly supports" a given piece of material if the information is present explicitly in the source, so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of Wikipedia:No original research. The location of any citation—including whether one is present in the article at all—is unrelated to whether a source directly supports the material. For questions about where and how to place citations, see Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section § Citations, etc.

The phrase The location of any citation—including whether one is present in the article at all—is unrelated to whether a source directly supports the material. should be removed. It just creates unnecessary confusion. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

That depends on whether your goal for the footnote is to make people understand what the words WP:Directly supports mean in this policy, or whether your goal is to explain how to properly place an Wikipedia:Inline citation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the problem is one of grammar; people sometimes incorrectly read it as "must include an inline citation that directly supports (that means 'touches', right?) the material (and by the way, this is WP:V so of course we're only talking about citations to reliable sources, but that's not really relevant here)". Instead, what the policy says is:

Under specified circumstances, the article "must include an inline citation", and
that the citation must point "to a reliable source", and
that the cited reliable source (NB: not the citation itself) "must directly support (i.e., match) the material".

Here's the first sentence about this in the policy and the footnote, with a few adjustments that might make it easier to understand:

The footnote would have to be adjusted to match the new language:

Alternatively, we could add a sentence such as {{xt|"Even if the Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

References should be as specific as possible, so other editors can easily verify that the information is correct. So the reference is for the 7 June update, rather than the general page for the Energy and Climate Change Ministerial Council. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! You are so kind. Purplewhalethunder (talk) 06:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Purplewhalethunder's most recent attempt didn't include external links and did include citations. There is no verifiability issue here. While there were problems with the previous edits, this one looks like an improvement to me. Yes, it relies on primary sources, but the old version is the one that included commercial sites as sources. @Purplewhalethunder: Wikipedia has a preference for the high quality independent sourcing. So, for example, a newspaper, magazine, journal, or book which talks about those certifications rather than the website of the certification itself. IMO MrOllie should self-rv the most recent edit, as it's overall an improvement that could be fixed up from there (the section heading, for example, which shouldn't include the title of the article). Finally, this isn't a good page to ask for help with content. I'd recommend visiting the WP:TEAHOUSE for that. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I will keep this in mind. Purplewhalethunder (talk) 06:51, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

FAQ item

I have added this information to the FAQ:

Are sources required in all articles?: Adding sources is the best practice, but prior efforts to officially require at least one source have been rejected by the community. See, e.g., discussions in January 2024 and March 2024.

My main goal is to have a place to store links to these discussions. I don't really want to put it in Wikipedia:Perennial proposals, because I hope that the answer will someday change (i.e., officially. It's already the actual practice by NPP and AFC). I have accordingly tried to write this so that it encourages the addition of sources but also admits that we have so far been unable to get this adopted as an official requirement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Print only newspapers

I can understand allowing paywalled sources, since it's possible for others to check and verify that information. Same thing with offline books. While I don't go into libraries, others do and often check these books, and that's enough for me. Also somewhat applies to the "rare museum sources" that the page mentions.

But isn't the whole point of print-only news stories that they're only published once and never again? How can that be verifiable? I know many people have copies of these, but these people will at some point quit Wikipedia, and when that happens, the source will essentially become Lost media. And it becomes even more complicated if the source was carried over from a page translation.

I don't want them to be banned or anything like that, but I'm curious on why there aren't any restrictions or guidelines on using them.

Needless to say, my comment does not apply to archived newspapers such as the ones on Newspapers.com. I'm talking about ones like this ^[1]^[2] Bonus Person (talk) 01:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

References

^ Fictional News Place "Person accidentally buys yacht" 7 November 1987
^ The Gallifreyan Post "Tardis stolen at 4 AM" 5 August 1980

Newspapers.com and other sources like that exist because copies persisted for decades, long enough to be digitized. Some GLAMs collect newspapers in some non-web format, such as microform or microfiche (or the print itself); for that matter, so do some news publishers. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yup, the New York Public Library (for example) has an entire section devoted to periodicals and newspapers. Blueboar (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The entire run of my hometown's defunct paper is sitting on microfilm in our town's historical society, and the main newspaper for the county is sitting on microfilm in several libraries here in the county. The local university is digitizing those microfilms, but even if they weren't, the paper is still verifiable by visiting a library with the microfilms. I believe the Library of Michigan also contains microfilms for all of the major papers in the state, so someone wouldn't even have to travel to my remote corner of the country to access the issues not yet digitized.

In sum, I don't see a problem with citing archived newspapers, since they're just that, archived. They may be even be more available than the rare sources we also allow because they're archived in multiple locations, as per my anecdote above. Imzadi 1979 → 23:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Libraries hold newspapers too. The British Library has every issue of every newspaper printed in the British Isles since 1840, for example, and provides digital copies online. Support your local library, Wikipedia couldn't exist without it! – Joe (talk) 10:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If the newspaper isn't defunct, then you can usually go to the building and ask to see the old newspapers. A copy of every single newspaper usually ends up bound into a large book and stored in the "morgue", for the newspaper's own reference purposes. In pre-digital days, these were traditionally used by the staff (e.g., to remind themselves which restaurants ran ads for this holiday last year, or what the editorial said about the mayor during the previous election), but they are generally open to the public. In the US, the morgue for a defunct newspaper tends to end up either at the local library or sometimes the local historical society. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

That may no longer be true everywhere. A few years ago when I checked with the local daily, I was told they no longer kept old issues for more than a year. Previous copies had been microfilmed and sent to the library district. The district in turn sends microfilm rolls that are more than a few years old to the local historical museum, which keeps them in an unstaffed archives/library building. Access requires staff being available to go over to the unstaffed building to let you in and sit there while you search the microfilm (Disclaimer: I used to work at the library and volunteer at the museum, but do neither now). I did find old issues (1970s) of the paper online, but I don't remember where. Donald Albury 20:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Our policies presume a dichotomy/ binary flow chart.....if it's accessible with great effort, hours, $$ and difficulty it counts (in this respect) the same as something that anybody can verify on line in seconds. The reality is is that there are degrees of verifiability. I'm not advocating for any structural changes for that except to acknowledge that in discussions that this be recognized. Verifiability which requires great effort and investment to verify is weaker than something that can be easily verified. North8000 (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

They also assume that someone falsifying verifications will eventually be caught, that if one was able to access it another will be able to check it and that editors who repeatedly falsify verifications will be permanently banned. Yes arguably its an easy system to abuse once or twice, but the more times someone falsified obscure verifications the greater the chance their whole house of cards would come down. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

There's a time element to consider there too. We use a lot of ephemeral internet sources that are highly available now but frequently disappear. This means that in practice we are dangerously reliant on a single archive for the verifiability of huge swathes of coverage. A traditional, physical archive is less easy to access now but far less likely to simply disappear overnight, and if anything liable to become more accessible over time (as librarians and archivists continue to work on indexing and digitisation projects etc.) – Joe (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll also note that the importance of a newspaper citation tends to vary with its accessibility. Some podunk place has an article on a now-celebrity's performance in Academic decathlon or their high school musical from 20+ years ago? Not the most earth shattering bit of trivia to be sourced, nor generally the most controversial or damaging if falsified. Jclemens (talk) 04:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Our policies are also explicit (not presumptive) that they value editorial judgement on evaluating sources. If all you have to verify an article is print RS that are difficult to re-verify, that's great, grumble-grumble-but-nobodys-gonna-verify-for-years (so even if the article was originally written in pristine quality, there will be citation drift within months). If you can verify content with a comparably good online source, online excerpt of the print source, or whatever, then you can append those citations inline in parallel with the print source; if you find online-accessible sources that are even better (such as new reviews/retrospectives years later), so much the better.

And of course since an old newspaper is a wp:primary source, you'll almost certainly be looking to cite it within the context of a secondary source that makes reference to that article or coverage. You'd keep the primary citation (from which you may still be drawing a direct quotation or something), but you have the secondary citation that gives the main structure to that section that is easily verifiable (a primary historical source should probably not be the only thing supporting the structure of an entire section in an article -- but I'd be interested to see what article you're working on so this is no longer an abstraction). SamuelRiv (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

No mention of Template:Image reference needed

We describe the use of {{cn}} but not {{Image reference needed}}. Should we include that? We do have quite a variety of maps and infographics. NebY (talk) 20:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I hope the community will recognize the enormous problem on WP (and on publications sourcing from Commons) of unsourced charts, maps, and diagrams, (as well as inadequately sourced photos), and that taking the first step of simply asking for sources will not break WP as we know it. In my last attempts at raising the issue I was quickly shouted down.

Making a recommendation here might help. I would support adding {{image reference needed}} and variants as a recommended tag on V (along with contacting the image author directly). SamuelRiv (talk) 20:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know this existed. I can see the need for tightening up sourcing for images. If an image is consistent with cited content in the article, how much documentation should we require for the image? If an image is described as an "artist's concept", what would we want supporting the accuracy of the depiction? I am sure there are other questions we can ask. Donald Albury 21:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Two examples of how much a creator can put in an image (and in these cases, maybe quite rightly - I'm not suggesting they include falsehoods):

File:Europe 180ad roman trade map.png maps which commodities were carried from where to where in the Roman Empire c. 180 AD. It also has a table of the Roman Empire's annual costs. It doesn't matter much whether the bends in the routes are correctly placed, but how is it verifiable that those are the main commodities; that they were moved from X to Y; and that those were the annual costs? It's used at Roman commerce but not supported by it.

File:Constitution of Rome.jpg has capsule descriptions of Roman institutions and elected officials, and diagrams some interrelationships. The illustrations are decorative; it's the text that matters and that would be subject to normal editing and refinement, in accord with WP:V, except that it's been turned into a jpg. NebY (talk) 22:49, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If those two images are doing their job of illustrating the article, then their contents ought to already be in the text of the article (in some form, not word for word). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

That's beautifully straightforward and I'll feed it back to the discussion that first set me to looking around for policy. Thank you. I fear it may be a rather high bar for our many historical maps, that one included. NebY (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

So... I'm a bit nervous about this. There are times when this is warranted (though an ordinary fact-tag on the caption should frequently have the same effect, so this isn't always necessary). Here are three stories:

Once upon a time, I ran across a POV pusher of the virus-denialist type on wiki. It seems that it's a bit more challenging to convince people of your belief that the virus doesn't exist, when there's an actual photo of the virus right there in the Wikipedia article. So he tried to get the photo removed. One of his ideas was to say that the photo wasn't a reliable source. The thing is, one enveloped virus looks much like another. They all basically look like blobs, and while it's a technical triumph to get the photo, if you made a blurry, low-resolution, black-and-white photo of a little blob of used chewing gum, it'd look about the same. But: the purpose of an image is to "illustrate", not to "prove", and that micrograph does a fine job of illustrating that it's a boring enveloped virus instead of a glorious structure like a bacteriophage. In that sense, it doesn't actually matter whether it's the purported virus. What actually matters is that it looks like the purported virus. This dispute is the basis for one of the examples in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature.
Another day, there was a real-world dispute about whether a politically disfavored person's African farm was actually in use, or if the ruling party could declare it abandoned, legally seize it, and give it to one of their cronies. Someone (presumably connected somehow to the event) uploaded an image to Commons, showing a very large cow, with a building in the background (the farm house?). Editors decided to omit the image, because they thought that even if it was "true" (i.e., someone really did take a photo of a cow at that farm) it might be "false" in another way (e.g., maybe that cow was trucked over there for the purpose of taking the photo, and then trucked right back home again). If there hadn't been a dispute over the farm, they probably would have accepted it, and if memory serves, they did believe that the photo was taken of a live cow, actually standing in the purported location. (In this part of Africa, "there's a cow there, so it's a working farm" is culturally reasonable. In other places, they'd have shown some sheep, or someone driving a tractor.)
More recently, I sent a batch of images for deletion at Commons. We determined that they were unmarked AI-generated "portraits" of 19th-century politicians. (Commons might accept some AI-generated images, because supporting images for articles such as Artificial intelligence art is within their scope, but having them unmarked means they're potential hoaxes.) We deleted them.

The first story shows the danger of rejecting images just because someone wants citations, especially for low-risk things. We actually don't want people to demand that a photo allegedly of a cupcake, that looks like a cupcake, get certified as being a cupcake before we can put it in Cupcake. The second shows that even if you have citations, you may not want the photo, because it might imply things that aren't appropriate for the article to be implying. The third shows the problem of not having reliable sources.

I don't think there is a single answer that works in all cases. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If it's not the virus, but it looks like the virus (because it has the same type of capsid, say), then that is a fine kind of photograph to put in an article that has no other photos (because capsids are very relevant to a virus). But what kind of virus is it? Where does the photo come from? (And e.g. if there's no provenance and if we can't ask the uploader, how do we verify copyright?) If the virus is a different virus, the caption and photo description should say what virus it is! This is not a question of what content is or is not appopriate for an article, but a question of WP:V!
A Wikipedian's uploaded photo of a cow on a farm is supposed to be used to lend support to a political claim one way or another in an article? That's blatant WP:OR, regards the content of the article, and is not necessarily a question about the verifiability of the image.

Nobody said anything there being about a single answer (nobody anywhere ever honestly suggests there being a single answer, outside religion -- that statement felt anticonstructive). We just want people to apply WP:V to images. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

What exactly does it mean "to apply WP:V to images"? Some POV pushers will interpret that in the most maximalist way possible. Other editors will call you tendentious if you insist that a proper reliable source be produced for simple, obvious illustrations, like "This is a cupcake", even if they're familiar with things like Is It Cake?

Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 40#RfC: Do images need to be verifiable? may be interesting if you don't remember it from back in the day. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

From what I remember of journalism class, a photograph for which you cannot assert the veracity -- that is, that what is inside it is what it is, in a genuine portrayal of the subject of the article -- becomes an "illustration". (That is, you can use it, but you call it an 'photoillustration' instead of a 'photograph' in your caption.) Typical classroom examples would be moving objects in a news scene foreground to better frame a shot, or in your example linked, a syringe of one thing in one place that's instead implied or claimed to represent another. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That is reasonable, and on wiki, it's the standard practice for drawings of dinosaurs.

But sometimes you need a caption that says, e.g., "Intramuscular injections are injected at a 90° angle", in which case what matters is that it looks like it's approximately 90°, and not whether it's "real".

You don't want an outright dishonest caption ("This dinosaur was definitely this exact shade of green"), but you also don't want to add a bunch of irrelevant disclaimers ("The point is to illustrate the concept of a 90° angle, for people who don't remember much about geometry. We do not guarantee that this image is real, or that the person whose skin is shown is actually receiving an injection at the time, or that there's a needle on the hidden end, or that the liquid in the syringe is a medication instead of water, or that any of the clear liquid is being injected. No cute animals were harmed in the making of this illustration, unless it turns out to be AI-generated, in which case there's a possibility that the computing power contributed planet-warming emissions equivalent, possibly causing a tiny increase in heat-related stress for all living beings"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

("The point is to illustrate the concept of a 90° angle, for people who don't remember much about geometry. We do not guarantee that this image is real, or that the person whose skin is shown is actually receiving an injection at the time, or that there's a needle on the hidden end, or that the liquid in the syringe is a medication instead of water, or that any of the clear liquid is being injected. No cute animals were harmed in the making of this illustration, unless it turns out to be AI-generated, in which case there's a possibility that the computing power contributed planet-warming emissions equivalent, possibly causing a tiny increase in heat-related stress for all living beings").
Thanks for the laugh! Schazjmd (talk) 20:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for such a slow response. Thank you for the detailed examples and the links. Clearly there's much to think about and lots of history here (so glad I didn't just boldly edit WP:V) and I don't have the relevant experience to really engage with it (or time RN). Mildly, I am surprised we seem to be stuck in a situation where editors can't come to WP:V to find policy or guidance on image verifiability, or even links to such. If hard cases do make bad law, is this a situation where the risk of hard cases is blocking the making of good guidelines? NebY (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Aright, let's get this out of the abstract. Some notable failures of a variety of image types:

c:File:Battle_of_aine_jalut.png: I forget where the issue was first brought to my attention, but about the only thing this drawing has in common with the Battle of Ain Jalut is that we can confirm there were humans there. (Contacting the uploader/author gave me no response, which is typical for these types of images on Commons; without even info basic info like how it was drawn, or what source material was used to draw it, if the author is even the author as they claim, there's no way to check where another version would be to check against copyright.)
File Talk:Arabic_Dialects.svg: the discussion is extensive on every reason a map can fail, and why it was continued to be pushed despite knowing it was junk.
c:File_talk:Map_of_Archaic_Greece_(English).jpg is an example of a map that fortunately gives a verifiable source (kudos to the author), and thus the work and reasoning can be checked, but is factually inaccurate and misleading. It is still used on WP articles.
Turkish vocabulary pie chart (edit request): how could a pie chart be wrong, when it's just numbers, in print?

Academics have been known to uncritically republish Commons images, even in print books. For images without provenance given anywhere, this critically increases the risk of wp:citogenesis. There was also an incident recently (within 2 years), (which I can't find, reported on VP iirc), where an academic book reprinted a (somewhat inaccurate and inadequately sourced) map from Commons with zero attribution. These are not trivial issues. Images are essential to quality articles, and readers take images seriously. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There are two types of images…

Images that are used to illustrate information that is stated in the article text.
Images that are used to present information in an article.

In the first situation, the important thing is that information in the article is reliably sourced. Consensus can determine whether the illustration accurately depicts that verifiable information, and is captioned appropriately.

In the second situation, the caption needs to include a citation to a reliable source, to establish that the information being presented in the image is verifiable. Blueboar (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

For example, if you have text in the article that says "14% of Turkish words are of foreign origin", then that pie chart is probably fine. But if you don't, then it's possible that you fix the image by changing the caption to say something like "According to the Turkish Language Association, 14% of words in modern Turkish are of foreign origin".

And then maybe you add another pie chart, saying something like "According to Global Language Experts Association, 14% of words in modern Turkish come from foreign languages, 27% come from Ancient Turkish, and the rest come from Proto Turkic" – all depending on the facts at hand, and what points need to be made in the article.

Also, thank you for mentioning the "battle" drawing; I've sent it to CSD as a probable copyvio. If you will go to c:Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets-gadget-section-Maintenance and scroll down a little, you should find an item called "Google Images & Tineye", which can be useful for discovering that the supposedly "own work" images uploaded recently have been kicking around the internet for a decade. See c:Help:Image searching. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think people are talking past each other if the word "caption" is being used to describe different things: there's the caption on the Commons page, which is confusingly a separate field from the image description field, but it nonetheless appears on the image preview when clicked from an article; then there's the caption text on the wp article page in the box below the downscaled image where it is displayed. (There is also the image alt text, but that's generally too brief to be problematic, and nobody is discussing it.) The latter in-article caption is relatively frequently edited and sourced somewhere to conform to the article text. The caption and image description on Commons (or else the WP File upload) is rarely if ever updated or checked over for accuracy, even if the main article text is significantly rewritten. (This also ignores that there are usually several articles across several wikis using any given halfway-decent illustration.)

In the pie chart example, you fix the image by changing the caption is absolutely wrong, for example even if the numbers are accurate, if the image was made using a different source from that in the article. So if the Commons caption doesn't match the article caption source (even if facts match), then that takes away from the credibility of the article (again, people see the Commons caption when they click to zoom in on the image, which is relatively common behavior). If the pie chart has extra information not in the source you cite in the article, then that's misattribution. (I get that a pie chart is easy for anyone to remake, but maps, scatterplots, and diagrams are a lot more difficult -- that's why you get situations like the dialects map, that people continued to use despite a consensus that it was misleading at best.)

For the "Battle", it's been deleted now, so I can't re-search, but of course a reverse image search was the very search thing I did however many years ago that was. Not sure where you found it now, if authorship was definitive, but anyway the first thing I did after searching was message the uploader and remove it from articles. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Btw, maybe I should go over the main points you made in the 2010 RfC you linked:

The first is whether we're willing to trust image uploaders -- yes! The problem we're trying to convey is when uploaders don't give adequate provenance (what where and when) -- just say what the image you upload is when you upload it and I'll take your word for it! -- and when editors use unverifiable uploads uncritically. Your quote about published academic sources is a strawman -- nobody is asking the uploaders for RS to show that your virus example fits the description of that species. Just tell us when where and of what they took the photo. (Of course, for maps, graphs, diagrams (these are by some standards considered primarily conveyers of fact, rather than creative expression), and historical svg reproductions like flags (derivative works), you need to give a specific source to verify the actual information.) But just give the information -- browsing Commons and WP articles, many such uploads have bare descriptions.

Interesting you suggest using WP:IUP (and that policy be descriptive over prescriptive). First, IUP is great in principle -- IUP#RI has what I'm asking for in photos for required information, and on diagrams it says it is required to include verification of the source(s) of the original data when uploading. (Of course, it uses as an example the featured image File:Conventional_18-wheeler_truck_diagram.svg, which in no version gives the source of the original data -- literally any Michelin manual in any auto shop would do, but that's beside the point.) So we have a policy that is not being followed even in its own examples; it's ineffective in practice because it only allows enforcement on wikipedia uploads, while most images we use (including the aforementioned truck diagram) are uploaded to and called from Commons, which has no such policies and for many reasons has no intent on implementing such. It also is a policy for enforcement at the image pages, whereas the eyes for verifiability in practice happens at the articles. Checking the WP deletion log for the File namespace, I see nothing.

We really do care about what the images look like, not whether they're "real". If we know (or suspect is very likely with good reason and no claim to the contrary) that an image is of A, but we present it to the reader uncritically in an article about B as if it were B, then we are deceiving the reader. I don't know how else to put it, but in an encyclopedia meant to educate with verifiable factual information, this act is simply a lie. You may think this is some theoretical journalism or academia thing, but it's just what it is, and people get into serious trouble for knowingly doing exactly what you've suggested is ok. SamuelRiv (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

> Your quote about published academic sources is a strawman -- nobody is asking the uploaders for RS – except, you know, for the editors who actually said things like "To me it's perfectly obvious that the image has no reliable source...What is the reason I doubt this pictures is HCV? Its lack of a verifiable source, that's what" and "it doesn't satisfy WP:RELY at all. The issue isn't merely one of quality. We simply don't know what it is of. It's all over the Internet with no reliable source". Another(?) editor said, of the same image, "It was uploaded in November 2007 by user < PhD Dre >, but he or she did not indicate where the image came from. was it his or her own scientific research? was it published? if so, where is the citation for a scientific publication?" POV pushers, in particular, actually do ask for sources, and they sometimes specifically ask for academic sources.

> on diagrams it says "it is required to include verification of the source(s) of the original data when uploading" appears to be an undiscussed bold addition by @Masem. If (i.e., Since) it does not reflect the community's practices, it should be re-worded. For example, "It is required to include verification of the source(s) of the original data" (The passive voice was used / Responsibility was shirked) could become "Please include information about where you found the original data".

> we are deceiving the reader – I think it's more complicated than that. Consider the bird in this photo. It's either a black-capped or a Carolina chickadee. The two species are notoriously difficult to tell apart by sight. Although they are very common birds and were first described scientifically 200–250 years ago, researchers weren't even sure they were separate species until about 20 years ago. But if the point you are trying to illustrate in the article is "This chickadee sometimes eats small insects that it finds in trees", and this is obviously a photo of a chickadee that looks like the right kind (even though they're hard to tell apart visually) and looks like it is sitting in a tree (which could be a realistic-looking but plastic Christmas tree) and looks like it's looking for a tasty snack between the needles (but for all we know, it's a stuffed specimen), does it actually matter if DNA testing or capturing it and taking it to an expert for identification would prove that it's the right/wrong species? What the article needs is an illustration, not photographic evidence.

We're not saying "This is a certified photo, following strict Chain of custody rules for evidence that this common type of bird exists". We're just saying: Look, sometimes you'll find these looking for insects in a pine tree. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

We need to be cautious here. What's done with images is often the same thing that we do with text.....summarize copyrighted material where the material itself can't practically be put in Wikipedia. IMO something that reserves action for the most problematic cases would be best. Where there is a specific challenge that the statement made in the caption or by image are false, misleading or baseless. North8000 (talk) 18:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC on amending the policy to explicitly allow any statement that ascribes information to the source

WP:SNOW at WP:1AM. No chance that consensus will form to repeal WP:V § Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Levivich (talk) 04:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should we amend this policy to explicitly allow any statement that inline ascribes information to the source, including any self-published source? Sovmeeya (talk) 16:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Should we add to this policy under the section "Sources that are usually not reliable" a sub-section named "Statements that ascribe information to the source", and under it write the following:

"Any statement that inline ascribe information to the source is verifiable, and the source is a reliable for it, as long as there is no reasonable doubt as to the ascribed information authenticity. This include self-published sources. Consequently, any such statement is allowed under this policy.

There are no limits to the source and to the ascribed information, which may include unduly self-serving and exceptional claims; claims about third parties, including living people and deceased people; and claims about events not directly related to the source. The claims may be suspected as true, suspected as false, verified as true, or verified as false.

The ascribed information may be direct quotes or a summery of the information in the source in other words.

Examples:

"According to X, Earth is flat"
"X says "Y an idiot, a thief, and a fornicator""
"X says he's the smartest man in the world"
"X claims 2+2=5"
"According to X, aliens from Mars are going to destroy the Earth in the year 2025"

"

The matter has been extensively discussed in the following: (the counts are of UNIQUE editors across all discussions)

Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Self-published sources for statements that ascribe the information to the publisher
- 7 editors have disagreed with me that the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy currently allows such statements. Out of these, 3 believes Wikipedia:Verifiability depends on context, ("is the article focused on X or is it focused on Y", and 1 believes that such statements are "nominally verifiable", but if self-published, still disallowed by the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy.
Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1233#Is self-published work a reliable and usable source of info about themselves?
- 2 editors have agreed with me that such statements are allowed by the current Wikipedia:Verifiability policy, although may be inappropriate due to WP:UNDUE.
Talk:Microsoft Windows#Request for comment on reliability of a self-published work as a source of info about themselves
- 3 editors have disagreed with me that the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy currently allows such statements
Talk:Microsoft Windows#Privacy features addition reverted
- 1 editor have disagreed with me that the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy currently allows such statements

Statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources, such as personal or cooperate websites, blogs, and social media, are a special and trivial case of self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. In such statement, only the info that the source has published something is presented as a fact, whereas the content of what was published is presented as subjective assertions.

The purpose of this policy should be only the verifiability of info by reliable sources. Self-published sources are weak, and so the policy currently have the following limitations on the type of info that can be based on such sources:

"Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer."

"

The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
It does not involve claims about third parties;
It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and
The article is not based primarily on such sources.

"

These limitations are very justified and make a lot of sense for the content of self-published sources, when it's presented as objective facts! But they are pointless and not justified at all for statements that ascribe info to the source. The purpose of these limitations is to assure that info in Wikipedia is reliable. The reliability for "X said Y" (cite X's website) is the highest possible. It's trivially verifiable. In such statement, Wikipedia vouches only for the simple fact that X have said Y. Wikipedia does not vouches for Y. Any reader understands that X could be mistaken or lying.

In this era of social networks, many famous/important/influential people have accounts they use to publish info about themselves, or their views/testimonies of other people/things/events. These include politicians, head of countries, head of large corporations, celebs, and all sorts of VIP's. What they publish can be important info for Wikipedia articles, usually about themselves, and occasionally about other matters. This is governed by WP:UNDUE, and should be judged on a case by case basis. Wikipedia should never AUTOMATICALLY dismiss statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources. My proposal, that have no exceptions, will prevent future disputes and save a lot of time.

Determining if a statement is appropriate for a certain article is a two stage process:

Is the statement verifiable? (this is independent of the article)
Does the statement pass the WP:UNDUE test? (this in article dependent)

These are two different and completely independent questions, covered by two separate and independent policies.

Wikipedia:Verifiability already explicitly says that "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" and refers to WP:UNDUE. So my proposal will not categorically greenlight any such statements. Inappropriate statements will fail WP:UNDUE. So there is really no reason for a concern.

Verifiability is only a function of the statement and the source. It's not a function of the context article. "Water is a compound with the chemical formula H2O." is verifiable statement for the article Water and for the article Tylor Swift. It just not relevant to the latter. Do not mix Verifiability and WP:UNDUE! It's very wrong! Wikipedia:Verifiability should only impose limits that are relevant to the verifiability by reliable sources of info that is presented as objective facts. Nothing more.

Pay attention: Arguments that concern WP:UNDUE should not be used to reject my proposal, as they are completely irrelevant. (e.g. "A LOT depends on context - is the article focused on X or is it focused on Y")

Hypothetical examples of how my proposal could apply, where mentioning statements with ascribed info is clearly essential:

The ex-wife of the president of a large country has posted on her verified social network page that she has divorced the president because he used to regularly get drunk and beat her. The ex-wife is not notable for an article, and no other evidence are available to support this claim.
- "The ex-wife of the president has said that he used to regularly get drunk and beat her." is a verifiable statement with a reliable source, and is due weight for the article on the president.
An influential celebrity X tweeted on her official social media page the following: "I honestly believe that Earth is flat".
- "X said that Earth is flat". is a verifiable statement with a reliable source, and is due weight for the article on X as well as for the article Modern flat Earth beliefs. Sovmeeya (talk) 16:50, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Nothing has changed since last month's discussion above. Sovmeeya's attempts to get their own way is becoming tendentious and a time sink. Schazjmd (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Adding 'According to X' in front of a statement does not somehow immunize it from verifiability concerns. If adopted, this loophole is so broad that it would amount to throwing away WP:V entirely. - MrOllie (talk) 17:02, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Malformed. Per WP:RFC, opening statements should be brief. I don't think this qualifies. DonIago (talk) 17:13, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose and close as Malformed. That is the least brief or neutral RFC question I've yet to see. It also completely ignores the preceding discussion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
It isn't Malformed! The RfC statement is: "Should we amend this policy to explicitly allow any statement that inline ascribes information to the source, including any self-published source?" That's brief and neutral. As per Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Statement should be neutral and brief: "If you have lots to say on the issue, give and sign a brief statement in the initial description and publish the page, then edit the page again and place additional comments below your first statement and timestamp." You fail to understand a policy. Again. Doesn't that tell you something? Sovmeeya (talk) 17:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
You continue to make uncivil remarks because other editors don't agree with you. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if the RFC isn't malformed, your own summary indicates that in the prior discussions a significant number of editors disagreed with you relative to the number of editors who agreed with you, so I have to wonder what you hope to achieve by escalating this. DonIago (talk) 18:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
In the prior discussions there was a dispute about what the policy CURRENTLY says. I believe that the limitations in the current policy are only for info that's presented as OBJECTIVE FACTS. Most of the other editors believe that the limitations also applies to ascribed info in self-published sources. This RfC is for changing the policy regardless of what the policy currently says. No limitations should be to automatically dismiss "According to X" statements. Hopefully, the RfC will attract more editors. Sovmeeya (talk) 18:18, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Given how this discussion is progressing, I would encourage you to consider withdrawing this RfC as a gesture of good faith. DonIago (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Can I suggest that sometimes, even if you're right and everyone else is a fool, you have to accept that others don't agree with you and move on. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Contrary to multiple core Wikipedia policies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
What policies? WP:UNDUE? Have you read what I've written? WP:UNDUE is the second stage for determining if a statement is appropriate for inclusion. My proposal only says that "According to X" statements should not be automatically dismissed on the grounds that it violates Wikipedia:Verifiability. Any potential statement would still have to pass WP:UNDUE to be included. No problem! Sovmeeya (talk) 18:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Allowing "any" such statements is way too broad, easy to imagine all kinds of no-nos. Selfstudier (talk) 18:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
If it so easy, why don't you share with us a "no-no", that also passes WP:UNDUE? Sovmeeya (talk) 18:27, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose WP:Core content policies wisely says Because they complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. When Sovmeeya insists that These are two different and completely independent questions, covered by two separate and independent policies, the editor is wrong and policies must always be interpreted in relationship with other policies. This proposal is mediocre reductionism. Cullen328 (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Core content policies is merely an "explanatory essay", not a policy or guideline. Wikipedia:Verifiability and WP:UNDUE complement each other indeed, but there is no relationship between them. The two questions are completely independent of each other. If a potential statement fails either, it will not be included. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
The core issue if this RFC is: Are attributed statements of opinion verifiable by citing the opinionator directly?

If we quote someone (or closely paraphrase what they say) we do need to verify that we are quoting the person accurately, and cite where the quote originated.

That said… there are lots of OTHER policies that limit when it is appropriate to include a quote (such as UNDUE) in the first place… and I do think we need to point readers to those other policies. Our policies should not be read in isolation, but as an interwoven set. Blueboar (talk) 19:17, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. As I've said above, this policy (Wikipedia:Verifiability) already explicitly says that "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" and points to WP:UNDUE. So my proposal will not categorically greenlight any such statements. Inappropriate statements will fail WP:UNDUE. So there is really no reason for a concern. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thing is, WP:SPS most definitely does apply when editors neglect to add in-text attribution… when they state opinions as if they were fact (“This proves that the earth is flat” as opposed to “According to Ima Nutcase, ‘This proves that the earth is flat’”).

An unattributed opinion stated as if it were fact is NOT verifiable by an SPS. That distinction is important to mention, and is directly related to this policy.

When, how and whether to include SPS opinions is an area where there is an overlap between UNDUE and WP:V. So both policies need to mention it and support each other. Blueboar (talk) 20:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The current policy sets the bar at about the right height. We should not be using self-published sources for content that involves claims about third parties or about events not directly related to the source. Rotary Engine ^talk 20:10, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose I can't support as is though I see it has some points. My main problem is a due type, the information would be a primary source and we really do need a secondary source or for it in some way up front like if the topic is a company then information that is perfectly obvious on its home page. We can't go around trawling primary sources as reporters and make our own news. If noone else has picked up on the president's wifes's blog then we shouldn't have what it says in Wikipedia. NadVolum (talk) 21:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. One of the standard considerations in favor of the current policy is that, if something is really worth including, it will be picked up by some reliable source, and we won't have to rely on the SPS. To take your example of the unhappy ex-wife: If the president's ex-wife said that he used to regularly get drunk and beat her, responsible media outlets in that country would make sure that the post really came from her, would ask the ex-president for his side of the story, and would then publish an article that we could cite. If the ex-wife's post attracts no such attention, per your hypothetical that "no other evidence are available to support this claim"? The most likely explanation would be that the media outlets in that large country, familiar with the people involved, know that the poor woman has more or less cracked up, and that she's routinely vending lies about her ex-husband. Maybe last month she posted that he was dealing drugs, etc. They've looked into her latest allegation and decided that it's garbage not worth reporting on. The alternative explanation is that, in today's clickbait-hungry media world, a bombshell allegation against the country's president sank without a bubble. That's not plausible. So I think your example illustrates the merit of the current policy. We could verify that she made the allegation but including it, if there's no other support for it, would still be UNDUE. JamesMLane t c 02:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose – eh, why? If you're running into friction or other issues here—if you feel you can only clearly justify something via a policy with this enshrined—that's probably an indication your idea of what should be included in a tertiary source is wrong. Remsense ‥ 论 02:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This is just another attempt (the third that I know of) by the OP to get some version of their desired result on this. We have been over this. Bludgeoning every response and repeatedly opening this is not helping. Meters (talk) 03:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Self-published sources for statements that ascribe the information to the publisher

In light of the dispute at Talk:Microsoft Windows#Request for comment on reliability of a self-published work as a source of info about themselves, I think it should be added to the policy, explicitly, that any self-published source can be used as a source of information for any statement that ascribe the information to the publisher, and that conditions 1-3 at Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves need not be met for the ascribed information. (e.g. "According to X, whatever is claimed on X's official website") This is essentially a special case of self-published sources of information about themselves, as it is about the views expressed by themselves, and nothing more. This will prevent confusion and similar disputes. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal as it violates WP:WEIGHT and opens the door to pushing into articles any claim made by a company about its competitors. Schazjmd (talk) 19:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's confusion with that. They should not be able to make claims about third parties, especially when those comments are obviously self serving. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose ActivelyDisinterested, that is exactly what the proposal means. The OP does not say that statements cannot be self-serving or concern other entities, and in fact, explicitly says that conditions 1 (not unduly self-serving or exceptional claims) and 2 (not involving claims about third parties) of WP:SELFSOURCE do not have to be followed as long as we ascribe the claim to the to the source. And losing condition 3 (not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject) opens us up to even more problematic claims. Meters (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

And I find this whole proposal to be very premature. The OP raised an RFC about specific content on Microsoft Windows, and is attempting to implement a general solution here to get their way (and more) even before the RFC has closed on the specific article issue raised. Note that as yet there has been no support for the OP's position in the RFC. Meters (talk) 09:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I read the discussion at Microsoft Windows that's way I said they shouldn't be able to do that. I also completely agree that trying to change policy to win a content dispute is a bad idea. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Let me tell you about myself, starting with what I think about you, is not ABOUTSELF. It fails at least one of either 2. It does not involve claims about third parties; or 3. It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;. Unadulterated sophistry. - Rotary Engine ^talk 09:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The policy permits my proposal as it is now. The purpose of the proposal is merely to say explicitly that this use of a self-published source is permitted. To prevent confusion.

It's not true that the such use necessarily violates WP:WEIGHT. Schazjmd's arguments has nothing to do with the questions of Verifiability and Source Reliability, and does not belong here. They are fine example of exactly why my proposal is necessary.

When we ascribe something to X, the source is used for the statement as a WHOLE - including the "According to X," part, so it's obviously a reliable statement that complies with the policy AS IT IS NOW. I understand your concerns, such statement might not be appropriate for some OTHER reason, but this should be judged on a case by case basis. One thing for sure, though - a self-published source for such statement will ALWAYS BE RELIABLE.

The purpose of Wikipedia:Verifiability is to assure "people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." Nothing more. You can't get any more reliable for someone's expressed views than their official website.

The matter has been previously discussed at the Teahouse, where I presented the question and two editors agreed with me.

I've withdrawn the RfC at Talk:Microsoft Windows#Request for comment on reliability of a self-published work as a source of info about themselves, and we'll continue discussing the matter here. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sovmeeya, the part you're ignoring is that WP:ABOUTSELF means "about themselves". It does not mean what they say about any other entity other than themselves. When Digital Confidence says something about any other company, it's no longer about themselves. Schazjmd (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring that. Any statement that begins with "According to X," is a 100% statement about X, not about any third parties, regardless of how this statement continues. It's entirely "about themselves". It's not certain that their expressed views are correct, but it's certainly certain that these are their expressed views.

It might be X that makes a statement about a third party, but the WHOLE statement only mentions it second hand, without endorsing it, and in compliance with Wikipedia sourcing policies. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

It is them stating their opinion about a third party. Adding attribution does not change that. Schazjmd (talk) 19:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding attribution does not change that, but it does make the statement verifiable and the source reliable. (for the statement as a WHOLE) Verifiability and Source Reliability is what this policy is all about. Sovmeeya (talk) 19:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

It does not make the source reliable. WP:ABOUTSELF only permits statements about themselves, not what they say about anyone else. Digital Confidence's self-published content about Digital Confidence is about them; anything Digital Confidence self-publishes about any other entity is not about Digital Confidence. Schazjmd (talk) 19:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The policy as it's written now is confusing. That's why I've made this proposal.

Forget about the policy for a second, and tell me this:

If it has been established that a certain website is the official website of X, and there is no reasonable doubt to its authenticity, (it doesn't appears to have been hacked). In that website, it's said something.

Consider this statement: "According to X, something".

Can you verify that X has expressed something? (by checking if something is said on the website)
Do you have any doubt for the truthfulness of the statement that "X has expressed something", if you find that something is indeed said in the website?

If the answer to the first question is yes, and to the second is no, then the statement is verifiable and the source is reliable. Sovmeeya (talk) 20:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

No that is not the case, which is why there is additional guidance about self-published sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The context you gave at the Teahouse and the content you wanted to add with the RFC don't match. At the Teahouse you asked about According to Digital Confidence, the built-in metadata stripper is flawed (although I would argue form limited being more neutral), which the source might be reliable for but could still be undue. While at the RFC was for According to Digital Confidence, the Remove Properties and Personal Information feature has a very limited support of file formats and metadata elements, and has a misleading user interface. These are not the same. Context is critical and how much you can rely on a self published source is important.

Simply adding "According to" to the beginning of a sentence isn't some kind of magic that allows any content to be added from a self-published source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion at the Teahouse was limited to the question of Source Reliability of a self-published source about itself, as it should be here. I kept it short to save space. Adding the other details about the nature of the criticism makes no difference to the question of Source Reliability of a self-published source about itself.

And yes, adding "According to" to the beginning of a statement does make it a COMPLETELY different statement - one that is about the publisher, and is permitted by THIS policy. Sovmeeya (talk) 18:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

No it's doesn't, as everyone replying to this thread has made clear. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not everyone. Blueboar agrees with me. See his comment below. And that's on top of the two editors at the Teahouse. Sovmeeya (talk) 09:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

At the very most, Blueboar agreed with a far less dogmatic formulation of your premise. They do not agree at all with the conclusion you've drawn from said premise. Remsense ‥ 论 09:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but your answers now seem to be a case of WP:IDHT. You may dislike the answer but multiple editors have expressed the same opinion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I wonder whether we're confusing WP:SPS with WP:ABOUTSELF. SPS does not have any restrictions like "claims about third parties".

In the instant case, we have:

A market-dominating software system, and
A possibly non-notable critic of some detail in one product.

When the critic says "I think a sub-sub-feature of this product is flawed in this very specific way", it might be SPS but it is not ABOUTSELF.

The question isn't whether someone can verify that the critic published that criticism; the only question of any importance is why anybody should care, for which see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The other critical question if it's self published would the points laid out in WP:SPS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and to be clear, those points are:

"produced by an established subject-matter expert"
"whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" (bold in the original)

The points that sound like "not unduly self-serving" are in ABOUTSELF. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The claim here is that adding "According to" to the beginning of the sentence makes it an ABOUTSELF statement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I can see why someone might come to that conclusion, but that's not what we intend ABOUTSELF to cover. ABOUTSELF is for "Chris Celebrity said he got married today". ABOUTSELF is not for "Alice Expert said something about someone else". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

No. You're ignoring the purpose of THIS policy - Wikipedia:Verifiability. As its title suggest, and as it's written in its lead section, its purpose is to assure "people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." Nothing more.

Now if this is the purpose of THIS policy, and if we have a different policy for Due and undue weight, why would THIS policy make a distinction between the two statements in your comment?! it would make no sense, as they are both verifiable the same! (provided that Chris Celebrity and Alice Expert published what it's claimed they've said in their respective official websites)

When we ask if a statement that begins with "According to" is verifiable or not, it makes absolutely no difference what follows the "According to", as long as it's indeed written in the self-published source. What follows could be true, false, short, long, about third parties, outragious. ANYTHING. Sovmeeya (talk) 10:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Though this has been articulated to you several different ways so far, you do not seem to appreciate the central point that policies are written to communicate important norms to the community as needed. You have a very particular problem with what the policies explicitly cover, but it is just that: a problem that is particular to you. You were told what ABOUTSELF is intended to communicate, and you continue to reply as if we're discussing the logical completion of policy instead of the particular practical needs that policy is intended address. Remsense ‥ 论 10:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, the statement "According to Digital Confidence, the built-in metadata stripper of Windows is flawed" does NOT involve claims about third parties, since the assertions are not presented as objective facts, but as subjective assertions that Digital Confidence claims. The criteria in Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves does not prohibits it. It prohibits bundling information about themselves with information about third parties that are presented as objective facts. For example: "the built-in metadata stripper of Windows is flawed, as was found in an analysis by Digital Confidence, a company founded in 2009". Sovmeeya (talk) 10:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, the statement "According to Digital Confidence, the built-in metadata stripper of Windows is flawed" does NOT involve claims about third parties. Respectfully, that statement DOES involve a claim about a third party - that "the built-in metadata stripper of Windows is flawed". Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves DOES prohibit using self-published sources for such a claim; even if attributed. There is NO limitation in that policy to only claims that are presented as objective facts. Rotary Engine ^talk 23:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

There is no EXPLICIT limitation in that policy to only claims that are presented as objective facts. This is why the policy is confusing, and this is why I want to clarify it. But it's a trivial deduction that this is the intended policy based on the purpose of this policy - verifiability.

Determining verifiability of "According to X," statements is trivial: if what follows "According to X," is in X's website - it is verifiable, and X's website is a reliable source for such statement. The only relevant criteria is that there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of X's website. (it hasn't been hacked) Sovmeeya (talk) 14:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't see that it is particularly confusing. Most respondents in this discussion do not seem confused.

The purpose of the policy is indeed verifiability, but the policy is explicit that this is verifiability in reliable sources; and both verifiable and reliable are terms of art, with meanings distinct from the plain English.

The policy then goes on to define reliable sources; where it is explicit that, with certain limited exceptions, self published sources are not reliable (term of art). The exception for self published sources is: a) subject matter experts, b) information about the publishers themselves; with a defined set of rules for b), including that the information "not involve claims about third parties".

Those rules are intended to prevent exactly the type of end around that is being proposed here.

The source directly supporting the proposed content is a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion.

I also concur entirely with the comments by Blueboar below around NPOV & DUE weight. But for mine, they are a second hurdle, when the horse has already fallen at the first: reliability. Rotary Engine ^talk 00:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll try it a little differently this time. Direct quotes of self-published work. Reminder - we're talking only about verifiability now, not DUE WEIGHT. Consider the following statements:

<START>"Company A states on its website the following: "A was founded in the year 2020""<END> (cite A's website)
<START>"Company A states on its website the following: "Our tests shows that product B by our competitor company C, totally sucks, and using it will kill you by electrocution""<END> (cite A's website)

To verify the 1st statement, you can check A's website and see if the quote appears there. A's website is a reliable source for the 1st statement.

To verify the 2nd statement, you can check A's website and see if the quote appears there. A's website is a reliable source for the 2nd statement.

Same thing! Anything else would be an absurd!

By contrast, the statement <START>"Product B by company C totally sucks, and using it will kill you by electrocution"<END> is not verifiable, and A's website is not a reliable source for it.

Don't you agree? Sovmeeya (talk) 10:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The statement of your second company is unreliable for the product, so your or anyone else's observation of it, does not meet the standards of verifiability on the product. There are many unreliable things that can be observed, just not put on Wikipedia. This should not be this hard by now, what you think of the word, when you think of the word "verify" is irrelevant (although you actually seem to have an oddly cabined view: 'to verify; is regularly concerned with quality and proper use of evidence, not just any evidence). But, how a source is being used is relevant, is it being used for unreliable commentary. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I've edited my comment to clarify the scope of the statements.

The quality of evidence of a direct quote is the highest you can get. The statements only mean that what is within the quotes appears in the A's website. Nothing more. It does not mean that what's within the quotes is necessarily true.

These two statements are equivalent:

<START>"Company A states on its website the following: "Our tests shows that product B by our competitor company C, totally sucks, and using it will kill you by electrocution""<END>
<START>"Company A states on its website the following: "Our tests shows that product B by our competitor company C, totally sucks, and using it will kill you by electrocution", but what company A states might not be true."<END>

In the first statement it is implicitly that what's within the quotes might not be true. In the second statement it's explicit. This covers all possibilities, so the two statements, as a WHOLE, are necessarily true. Sovmeeya (talk) 12:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Come on. You either are not listening, interested in philosophy and so in the wrong place, or simply have no ability to properly use information and sources in context. When you use what you want to use for unreliable commentary on the topic, it cannot be verifiable for the topic. No one cares what you think is true, the policy cares when someone is trying to shove unreliable commentary in a particular article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't agree. Because, per WP:V, verifiability (Wikipedia term of art) isn't just you can check the source, it's you can check the source AND the source has certain characteristics. For the most part, as a simplification, those characteristics are a reputation for fact checking & accuracy. For self-published sources, those characteristics are detailed in WP:SELFPUB and WP:ABOUTSELF. Rotary Engine ^talk 14:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Also oppose. Opens the door for biographies and propaganda Slacker13 (talk) 05:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Current policy already allows it under certain circumstances/conditions. There's no need to go beyond that with wording that would be used as categorically greenlighting it, overriding the current policy restrictions. North8000 (talk) 21:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the contention that when we write: “According to person X, ‘Y an idiot’” (cite X’s website) we are making a statement about X’s opinion, and not a statement about Y. It is verifiable that X has stated this opinion.

However… Verifiability is NOT THE ONLY ISSUE here. We have to ask whether mentioning X’s opinion is appropriate or not. THAT is a function of DUE WEIGHT. It might be DUE to mention it in the article about X, but be UNDUE to mention in the article about Y.

(extreme example: Hitler’s views on Jews are verifiably sourced to Mein Kamph, but there will be a very very limited range of articles where his views would be appropriate to mention - even with attribution. Essentially, they would be DUE to mention in the article about Hitler himself, and definitely NOT in an article on Judaism).

To relate this to the debate under discussion: the question isn’t really about verifiability (whether we can reliably verify that Digital Confidence has an opinion), but how much WEIGHT to give that opinion. Blueboar (talk) 22:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That's what I've been saying early on at Talk:Microsoft Windows. Another editor there didn't agree with me. He and most editors in this discussion, so far, think that the proposed statement violates Wikipedia:Verifiability. Evidently, the policy as it is written now is confusing! That's why I'm asking to EXPLICITLY make it crystal clear in the policy that such use of a self-published source NEVER violates Wikipedia:Verifiability. (although it might be inappropriate for other reasons) When we'll do that, we could move on to the question of DUE WEIGHT at Talk:Microsoft Windows. This will also prevent confusion, unnecessary disputes, and waste of time in the future, for similar statements. Sovmeeya (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Thing is, this actually isn’t a question that comes up all that often, and amending policy to “clarify” how it should be applied in rare situations almost always causes unforeseen headaches.

So we are reluctant to amend policy without seeing a proposal for specific wording - and then giving a lot of thought as to how that proposed wording might be misused by Wikilawyers to cause even more debates than the status quo language causes.

Sometimes it is actually easier to occasionally have to explain “no, that’s not what this passage of policy means” than it is to amend the passage itself. Blueboar (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We are making a statement about X's opinion, but that statement involves a claim about Y; which fails WP:ABOUTSELF #2. Rotary Engine ^talk 23:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

A LOT depends on context - is the article focused on X or is it focused on Y? Blueboar (talk) 11:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Uh oh, you're getting confused now. Perhaps forgotten what this discussion all about by now. Context has nothing to do with the question of verifiability of "According to X," statements. Could be relevant to DUE WEIGHT, but not to verifiability. Wikipedia:Reliable sources also have a "Context matters" section, but it's not the kind of "context" relevant to the question of verifiability of "According to X," statements. Better stick to what you've initially written above.

Determining verifiability of "According to X," statements is trivial: if what follows "According to X," is in X's website - it is verifiable, and X's website is a reliable source for such statement. The only relevant criteria is that there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of X's website. (it hasn't been hacked) Sovmeeya (talk) 14:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Our policies and guidelines all work together… and thus need to be discussed together. The issue here is actually Reliability (which is an aspect of Verifiability)… most self published sources (ie those not published by acknowledged experts) are NOT considered reliable for claims about third parties… but ARE considered reliable for claims about themselves and their beliefs - IN articles about the person or people who hold those beliefs. This is why we can cite flat earth proponents in the article about Flat Earth… but NOT in the article on Earth. Blueboar (talk) 14:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

That's not what you initially said. Anyway, claims could be reliable or not, regardless of what articles you put them in. In what articles we should mention a particular statement, if any, is a question of DUE WEIGHT. DUE WEIGHT and Verifiability (including Source Reliability) are two different and completely independent questions, covered by two separate and independent policies.

When we consider a statement for inclusion, we should start by asking if it's verifiable, and if the answer is yes, continue to ask if it's DUE WEIGHT for a particular article.

For "According to X," statements, the statement will ALWAYS be verifiable if what follows "According to X," is in X's website. Period. From this point, we need to consider DUE WEIGHT. Sovmeeya (talk) 14:57, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if you have a WP:Published source in which X says ____, then "According to X, ____" will always be verifiable. It won't always be verifiable-because-ABOUTSELF-subclause, but it will be ordinary-main-policy-verifiable (which, lest you misunderstand, is better).

But:

See also Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion, because being verifiable is Necessary but not sufficient.
See also Wikipedia:Due weight, which one company's criticism of one detail in one subunit of a huge software system isn't.

Which is to say: The statement is verifiable, and you still don't get to put it in that article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

We're talking about a case where X's website is a self-published source. That is, the author and publisher are the same, as in "Business, charitable, and personal websites". That's as per "Examples of self-published sources" at Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works#Identifying self-published sources. So it's not "ordinary-main-policy-verifiable".

I don't need you to tell me that "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion", I've said that over a month ago at Talk:Microsoft Windows#Privacy features addition reverted, as well as numerous times here, including in the very comment you were replying to.

When we'll finish clarifying here that "According to X," statements are ALWAYS verifiable, we could move on to discuss Due weight at Talk:Microsoft Windows. Sovmeeya (talk) 11:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

No. Not All Ways. you should know this by now. We measure all things in the context of articles. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The wording right now is a little ambiguous, but it works in most situations. As I have said during the RFC discussion, there are multiple considerations, including how elaborate a claim is and the scope of the article. Senorangel (talk) 02:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll give another example to everyone here: Lets say, hypothetically, Tylor Swift tweeted on her official social media page the following: "I honestly believe that Earth is flat". Now consider the following statement: "Tylor Swift said that Earth is flat". It has the following traits:

It's self-published
The ascribed info (second handed) involves a third party (Earth)
The ascribed info (second handed) involves an exceptional claim (outrageous, contradicts proven solid scientific evidence, contradicts view held by all experts in the field, view held by a negligible minority)

Shouldn't we mention this on the Wikipedia article on Swift as well as the article Modern flat Earth beliefs? Of course we should!

Not only that the fact that the ascribed info is false does not makes the statement inappropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia, it's precisely the reason why it should be included! She is very famous, has many fans, and therefore influential. (we shouldn't be discussing here things about DUE WEIGHT, but I wanted to give an extreme case to make my point)

What does that tell you all? that what Wikipedia:Verifiability says is not what you think it says!

In particular, the conditions at Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves does not prohibits it. It prohibits bundling information about themselves with information about third parties that are presented as objective facts. For example: "the built-in metadata stripper of Windows is flawed, as was found in an analysis by Digital Confidence, a company founded in 2009". There is no EXPLICIT limitation in that policy to only claims that are presented as objective facts. This is why the policy is confusing, and this is why I want to clarify it. But it's a trivial deduction that this is the intended policy based on the purpose of this policy - verifiability.

Determining verifiability of "According to X," statements is trivial: if what follows "According to X," is in X's website - it is verifiable, and X's website is a reliable source for such statement. The only relevant criteria is that there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of X's website. Sovmeeya (talk) 14:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No. Earth is not a third party, it is not a party at all, it is a thing without agency. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

However… if Swift says “Trump is a poo-poo head”, we can mention her self published opinion about Trump (properly attributed) in the article about Swift… but NOT in the article about Trump. Again… context matters. Blueboar (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Blueboar, the hypothetical source the new editor has given in the example is a self-published social media post. That would violate WP:BLPSPS.

Compare a musician tweeting an opinion ABOUT music:

Self-published source: "The rhythm in this song is challenging".
Article content: Y "Mel Musician once described the rhythm as 'challenging'."

the same musician tweeting a fact ABOUT music:

Self-published source: "That song is in the key of B♭".
Article content: Y "Mel Musician said she plays the song in the key of B♭."

with the same musician tweeting ABOUT herSELF:

Self-published source: "Today is my birthday!".
Article content: Y "Mel Musician said her birthday is September 23rd."

and the same musician tweeting ABOUT someone else:

Self-published source: "Today is my friend Chris Celebrity's birthday!".
Article content: N "Mel Musician said Chris Celebrity's birthday is September 23rd."

Self-published sources cannot be used to support content that are ABOUT another living person, full stop. It does not matter if it's an opinion or fact. Such a source is unusable per WP:BLPSPS. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you. But I'll add for clarity of the new editor, instead of "Article content" in the above chart, you should read that as "Potential article content", because as WhatamIdoing and others stress elsewhere: just having a source is not enough, it is a piece that goes into the multiple considerations. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

An example of self-published source about a third party living person:

The ex-wife of the president of a large country has posted on her verified social network page that she has divorced the president because he used to regularly get drunk and beat her. No other evidence are available to support this claim.

Consider the following statement: "The ex-wife of the president has said that he used to regularly get drunk and beat her."

It has the following traits:

It's self-published
The ascribed info (second handed) involves a third party (the president)
The ascribed info (second handed) is about a living person
The ascribed info (second handed) involves an exceptional claim of objectionable nature
The ex-wife is non-notable for an article on herself on Wikipedia

Shouldn't we mention this on the Wikipedia article on the president? Sovmeeya (talk) 13:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

If the source is saying "she said", then it is not the wife's own statement. And the issue is whether the source (not the wife) is reliable for that and a bunch of other things. If you are saying "she said", just because you want to talk about her tweets, you are definitely not reliable, and her bare tweets are not reliable for anyone else, except herself. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

To answer the question Shouldn't we mention this on the Wikipedia article on the president?: The community decided not to use such sources in this way. This is a self-imposed restriction.

In the model that all sources are reliable for something, the ex-wife's social media post is a reliable, non-independent, primary, self-published source for what she posted. You could not use this to make any claim that "it's true" in any form: not that it's true that he got drunk, not that it's true that this was her actual reason for divorce, merely that it's true that she said this. (Even then, we'd probably want some reason to believe that her social media account hadn't been hacked.)

Now: Is this verifiable? Yes. A reader "can check" that this was actually posted in her account, by going to the post and reading it. All sources/documents are considered reliable for claims about the exact words that are in that document. Nobody will click the link to her social media post, read the words "I divorced him because he used to get drunk and beat me", and say "What's going on? This post is just her saying that tomorrow is her birthday". They're all going to say "Yes, I guess she did post that."

But: This is a disallowed source. It is nominally verifiable but still not acceptable under our policies. Because using that post to talk about her ex-husband is banned under our policies, it doesn't particularly matter whether it's verifiable. You still can't use it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What you've written in paragraphs 2 and 3 are absolutely true. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

You claim that such statement is still disallowed by this policy, despite being "nominally verifiable". That's an exceptional claim! self-published sources are weak, and so the limitations imposed by this policy are very justified and make a lot of sense for the content of self-published sources, when it's presented as objective facts! But they are pointless and not justified at all for statements that ascribe info to the source.

On top of that, a policy titled "Verifiability" has no place for limitations that has nothing to do with verifiability. Just like we have a separate policy for WP:UNDUE, we can have a separate policy for additional limitations, if in fact the community wishes to impose them. This could be titled Wikipedia:Limitations for statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources, or even better - Wikipedia:Pointless limitations for statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources. I'm sure Wikipedia servers have enough room for one more policy page.

Consequently, I would have accepted your claim that these limitations are imposed by this policy only if it had been stated explicitly that they apply for statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources, which is not. But let's not argue about it any longer! my proposal here is to amend the policy anyway. I'm calling it "clarifying the existing policy". You want to call it "a policy change"? so be it. The result is the same. I've created an RfC for the proposed change below. If anyone have sensible arguments for why any limitations should be imposed for AUTOMATICALLY dismissing statements that ascribe info to the source in self-published sources, they can present them there. Just remember - arguments that concern WP:UNDUE should not be used to reject my proposal, as they are completely irrelevant. (e.g. "A LOT depends on context - is the article focused on X or is it focused on Y") Sovmeeya (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it looks like you've been indeffed, but just in case you're reading this page anyway, mind the gap between not acceptable under our policies (notice my use of the plural word policies) and disallowed by this policy (notice your use of the singular policy). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

About this: There is no EXPLICIT limitation in that policy to only claims that are presented as objective facts. This is why the policy is confusing, and this is why I want to clarify it. But it's a trivial deduction that this is the intended policy based on the purpose of this policy - verifiability.

Sovmeeya, I'm sure this "trivial deduction" feels logical to you, but the deduction is wrong. The purpose of this policy is to explain one (1) of the multiple requirements for getting content into Wikipedia. The requirement explained on this page is that the material – whether facts or opinions, which are treated equally in this policy [*] – must have been provably published somewhere else (i.e., off wiki), by a source that we consider "reliable".

There is nothing in this policy or any other that says Digital Confidence's view about Microsoft should be included in Wikipedia. BTW, if you happen to be connected to this company, this would probably be a good time to review Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and to let the team know that their criticism of Microsoft isn't likely to be included in the English Wikipedia.

[*] Facts and opinions are treated the same because we assert facts about opinions, rather than the opinions themselves. "According to Mel Musician, the rhythm as 'challenging'" is a fact – a fact that is about her opinion, but still a fact. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: For the layman, the casual reader of Wikipedia, the difference between "2+2=5" and "According to John Doe, 2+2=5" is just a technicality. That's why this type of statements are allowed only on the current special circumstances. Also, the proposal can easily lead to loads of Argument from authority. Cambalachero (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Question: Why was so much time wasted on this ridiculous proposal? E Eng 05:39, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
I think the WMF should invest in some sort of fund that we can dip into to bribe folks with whatever amount they think they should expect to see from being promoted onwiki—just so we don't have to feel guilty about not arguing with them, or indeed feel guilty when we argue with them. Remsense ‥ 论 12:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
Sometimes, it's helpful to explain things even when it seems hopeless because there exist people – rare, perhaps, but real ones – who have similar questions but don't want to ask themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Oppose in strongest possible terms. This is obviously not going to happen but it's important enough to weigh in anyway. Attribution is not a magic cure-all; it still puts something before the reader, which means we still have some responsibility to source it properly. WP:RSOPINION establishes that there is still a threshold of fact-checking and accuracy that must be met for opinion (ie. only some sources are usable for opinions), just a lower one than for in-article statements of fact. We cannot put something like "ResearchCorp says that John Doe is a pedophile" to an article sourced solely to ResearchCorp's website; nor can we use it for something like "ResearchCorp says that they have the cure for cancer" or something like that. Statements that are exceptional, or BLP-sensitive, or clearly self-serving require a secondary source exist for them so that we can provide necessary context; if no secondary source exists then we can't be covering them at all. And there's another case that is often overlooked - the practice of so-called "nutpicking", where an editor could look for the most absurd or incriminating statements from a BLP's own site or the like, and use WP:ABOUTSELF to post them in order to make that person look dumb or crazy, even if no secondary sources have covered those statements. All of these things require limits on how we can use non-RS primary sources about themselves. --Aquillion (talk) 04:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Fictional News Place "Person accidentally buys yacht" 7 November 1987

[2] The Gallifreyan Post "Tardis stolen at 4 AM" 5 August 1980

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